I have read the article especially the section "For YouView, the trick to getting users to watch TV through an internet connection is to treat these IP-based shows and channels as you would traditional terrestrial television. It believes that whether a show is piped through a broadband cable or an aerial it shouldn't really make any difference." If thats the case then the trick isn't working as I couldn't record a missed episode of a progamme which I accessed via BBC iplayer. Nope internet based shows are not treated the same as terrestrial television.
Roy, honestly, if you had a dead-slow internet connection I can see the point. Or if, as you said, you want to watch it on the bus. But if you're sat in front of the telly, why record it when you can just watch it whenever you want? Subject to the expiry date, of course.
I have read the article especially the section "For YouView, the trick to getting users to watch TV through an internet connection is to treat these IP-based shows and channels as you would traditional terrestrial television. It believes that whether a show is piped through a broadband cable or an aerial it shouldn't really make any difference." If thats the case then the trick isn't working as I couldn't record a missed episode of a progamme which I accessed via BBC iplayer. Nope internet based shows are not treated the same as terrestrial television.
Please people read what I said. I had intended recording a series for later viewing and by accident forgot to set the unit to record the first of 8 episodes. After realising this I thought that I would record it via iplayer and then record all the next 7 normally to enable me to view the whole 8 later. As it turned out I had to watch the first 1 and then wait some weeks before watch the next 7.
Surely thats the idea of having a recording device, to be able to store and view later? Is it not?
I accept what you say about iplayer but to be able to go back up to a week and access missed programmes is fine, but not if you've missed one in a series you wish to record. The device is a recorder I repeat.
I have read the article especially the section "For YouView, the trick to getting users to watch TV through an internet connection is to treat these IP-based shows and channels as you would traditional terrestrial television. It believes that whether a show is piped through a broadband cable or an aerial it shouldn't really make any difference." If thats the case then the trick isn't working as I couldn't record a missed episode of a progamme which I accessed via BBC iplayer. Nope internet based shows are not treated the same as terrestrial television.
Going back to your first point above John, It IS true that terrestrial programs are treated different to IP/Iplayer, in that with terrestrial you don't have the ability to go back in time to watch them, if you forgot to record. So with iplayer, 4OD, etc you are offered more - not less, such are you are implying. Different, but more IMHO. I see your point, but I really don't see it as a great hardship. After all these days of 24hr TV, pretty much everything is repeated at some time or other. You just have to wait for the next bus to arrive.
TBH, I'd much rather they look at getting the USB activated for what it should be used for, as per the OPs, post, rather than further complications
I have read the article especially the section "For YouView, the trick to getting users to watch TV through an internet connection is to treat these IP-based shows and channels as you would traditional terrestrial television. It believes that whether a show is piped through a broadband cable or an aerial it shouldn't really make any difference." If thats the case then the trick isn't working as I couldn't record a missed episode of a progamme which I accessed via BBC iplayer. Nope internet based shows are not treated the same as terrestrial television.
Hi Simon Yes I accept what you say but my point is that the statement saying the ip TV and the terrestrial TV are treated the same is wrong. Simply that. Anyway my views are probably no longer relevant because my box has recently been disposed of simply because I object to waiting for not just enhancements but for basic facilities to be made available........USB......which is never going to happen.
I have read the article especially the section "For YouView, the trick to getting users to watch TV through an internet connection is to treat these IP-based shows and channels as you would traditional terrestrial television. It believes that whether a show is piped through a broadband cable or an aerial it shouldn't really make any difference." If thats the case then the trick isn't working as I couldn't record a missed episode of a progamme which I accessed via BBC iplayer. Nope internet based shows are not treated the same as terrestrial television.
OK mate, and i wish you well. wrt your last point - I totally agree. All we seem to be able to do is b1tch about it unfortunately (myself included) Adieu.
I have read the article especially the section "For YouView, the trick to getting users to watch TV through an internet connection is to treat these IP-based shows and channels as you would traditional terrestrial television. It believes that whether a show is piped through a broadband cable or an aerial it shouldn't really make any difference." If thats the case then the trick isn't working as I couldn't record a missed episode of a progamme which I accessed via BBC iplayer. Nope internet based shows are not treated the same as terrestrial television.
In my mind it follows that for some reason given that two sockets were provided and made partially functional there has to be some reason why a decision was made then to not make them useful.
As has been mentioned before, it is entirely possible that Digital Rights Management raised it's ugly head, and some of the YouView partners simply didn't want to allow their content to go anywhere outside of the YouView box, because within the box it could be "managed".
And as an extension of this they supposed that if they allowed playback from a USB device the punters would then demand that it worked in the opposite direction.DRM copyright management is perfectly adequately complied with by Humax's HD/R Fox T2 series. None of the broadcast content partners have problems with their use of encoding on the HD recordings which makes the USB copy only playable using the original recorder.
Humax have just brought out a single tuner " < free time > " satellite box here which, like the HD Fox T2, can be used as a PVR by adding a USB external hard drive.
It's not a question of "allowing" USB playback - it's implementing the USB playback feature mandated in YV's base specification.
In my mind it follows that for some reason given that two sockets were provided and made partially functional there has to be some reason why a decision was made then to not make them useful.
As has been mentioned before, it is entirely possible that Digital Rights Management raised it's ugly head, and some of the YouView partners simply didn't want to allow their content to go anywhere outside of the YouView box, because within the box it could be "managed".
And as an extension of this they supposed that if they allowed playback from a USB device the punters would then demand that it worked in the opposite direction.This is just words, surely its simply telling Humax to make use of code they already have and use on their existing machines. But lets not bother waste any more time, they're not going to do it.
... as they have done with wifi - which the USB was to be used to run a dongle as an alternative to a built in circuit that have both now disappeared from the available specs
I went looking for the 1984-like rewriting of history you claim for the technical spec. And it's still 1.0, which it would be a real nono to revise it under and yet keep the same version number.
But case not proven, the requirement has not disappeared and it is still there, as large as life and twice as natural, on page 23:-
Integrated wireless Ethernet: 802.11n N Integrated wireless Ethernet is optional. If not provided, the device must support the use of USB Wifi adapters.
So I'm just wondering, what were you looking at?
As has been remarked several times before, YouView asked a lot more of its box suppliers than it ever managed to provide the software for to activate these features.
I'm sure the USB sockets on the YouView boxes will perfectly well support the use of a wifi dongle. If YouView ever get round to writing the code to interface this, that is.
I am not sure if the capability of the hardware is much concern in the case of the Humax boxes - at least three of their other UK HD boxes already do including their two previous FV HD PVRs and their single tuner free time box (the only current one I am unsure of is the new FVHD box - with internet connection and real MHEG-IC for less than a YV box retail.
You seem already aware the Humax boxes have an additional maintenance menu (I wonder if the people reply to emails for technical queries at Humax have been told yet) It is indeed kludgy to get into. Yet the YV base specification allows manufacturer specific sub-menus from the standard ones. No reason whatsoever I can think of that a link to the Humax maintenance mode could be added so fewer people wipe their recordings when there could be an alternative remedy.
I think the real problem is their dogmatic sticking to all users having the same "look and feel" so they can change boxes or use one elsewhere and be totally familiar. That has broken down somewhat now only the retail Humax boxes have the accessibility options like hi-vis menus. I wonder if that was so they could go to the BBC Trust (who I understand had laid down conditions on the BBC's continued participation including accessibility being on stream by a certain date) with a retail box and say "look, we've done it". You may also note Susie makes great play of this in the techradar interview:
"We have been doing quite a bit of work surrounding accessibility, working really closely with the RNIB (Royal National Institute of the Blind) and with Scope and we have added a number of features that will help blind users and users with other disabilities." The accessibility option to change color scheme is very useful - I can instantly identify if I'm using the Humax or Huawei LOL. Pity BT and TalkTalk customers with disabilities are still discriminated against because of them.
Peter Wells> I suspect the reason for the change is the problems that BT customers apparently have using their multicast system over wifi.
BT don't offer Multicast channels over wifi Peter.Thanks for the info on the TT box, I had not been up with their product news recently. I had a look at their site and note it is the limited buffer box. Is it actually in the same case as their PVR or is it a smaller format? it's difficult to tell.
I see they still have the same old exaggerated full price claims to fool the casual customer - £149 for a cut down zapper with a chip stuck in it that costs only £30 less than a real, fully FVHD+ spec compliant including the 2011 revision with a 500Gb drive from Humax - or enough to get 3 of their own YV PVR boxes from that "well known auction site"?
While we are still expressing surprise at that large numbers of elderly shoe repair operatives, how do you translate this from Piers Lomax in the interview? (the 'normalcy' is a consistent picture quality between broadcast and IPTV channels).
"This striving for normalcy, according to Lomax, is the reason given for YouView not yet offering Wi-Fi on its boxes. He believes that Wi-Fi works in some places but "in an awful lot of households, Wi-Fi just isn't reliable yet." "There isn't the consistently high bandwidth to offer high-definition pictures and it is really important that we have a reliable service. People are used to TV pictures that don't break up so with this in mind wired, for us, is the best solution at the moment," said Lomax "If YouView boxes do become Wi-Fi enabled it is because we have worked out how to deliver really great quality pictures through a wireless connection."
Now I am not Youview's Head of Engineering so pardon my ignorance, but I was under the impression that in a properly working wifi setup on N specification (like my Huawei YV box connected using a router as a bridge), the speed of connections depends heavily on the "wi" conditions and very little, if anything, to do with the box beyond the (USB) input.
If the (required by the base specification) dongle is working, its a combination of distance from the main router. the strength of the transmitted signals, aerial efficiency radio frequency blocking objects/walls/or possibly people between the dongle and router antennas but, most of all I believe, the number of other networks locally who share the wifi channel.
I am sitting here - my flat is in a small low block of about 30 flats watching the dancing graph of the local network strengths. We have extremely efficient RF signal blocking outside walls - >60 cm of solid masonry (there are also similar arched piers down the middle of the buildings. (I am 8Km from Crystal Palace with direct line of sight but from the opposite side of the block. None of the muxes penetrate the two masonry walls and two plasterboard walls between me and the site using the highest power transmitters in the UK).
Despite this shielding my phone can "see" up to 15 wifi networks at one time so here's a few hints Lomax might like to be exploring with YV's ISP partners at least at first.
I am the only one using a channel in the 5GHz band - any dongle and ISP supplied router should support this band. Initial setups should be attempted on 5Ghz, even if at the end of the day there are problems with the more fragile signals being blocked, They can always default to one of the freer channels in the 2.4 GHz band.
Try getting TalkTalk to get their default channel switched from Channel 11 but not to Channel 6 which Orange, Virginmedia and BT hog or Channel 1 (Sky) - if they do not like being named and shamed, try setting unique customer-decided names for their wifi network. Guess what; the three wifi networks that are the only users on their channels have names indicating who owns it, not something like "TALKTALK-56BC63" or, as in one case I see "BT Wifi". Incidentally, how the **** is a casual user supposed to log on easily using a new wifi device if they cannot remember if their network ID is Virginmedia1547514859 or Virginmedia1547872859 -admit it, you had to check there are differences.
Web located manuals and help pages are an excellent idea to save resources - not if your broadband goes down so you cannot access the internet. (Hat tip to BT for at least having a page showing how to change settings on their Home Hubs.
Get them to ensure their installation engineers have a way of checking what channels are in heavy use in the locality - the free apps at least allow you to see that even if they are not entirely accurate.
Argos's method for delivering items to customers in their shops - fling it at them is a factory sealed box hoping it works and they know what to do - is not a definition of "engineer installation".
Somebody who can drive and has attended an intensive half day course to put an RF male plug in an RF socket, an RF female plug in a male socket, an HDMI lead in an HDMI socket, a 3 square pin plug in a wall socket and to find where the box's on button is located - then politely depart 5 minutes after walking through the door IS NOT an "installation engineer".
An extra 5 minutes explanation on installation saves an hour to follow up.
Peter Wells> I suspect the reason for the change is the problems that BT customers apparently have using their multicast system over wifi.
BT don't offer Multicast channels over wifi Peter.I truly think you need to bin that box. It clearly does not meet your needs. And it appears nor does anything else either.
But I take your point about engineer installs. My BT Openreach Infinity engineer was clearly self employed, who wanted a quick in-and-out jobby.
He didn't get away with it.
I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
For me, the lack of video playback via USB is a glaring omission and one that prevents the platform from being an all-in-one solution that turns an old TV into a smart TV.
For me, the lack of video playback via USB is a glaring omission and one that prevents the platform from being an all-in-one solution that turns an old TV into a smart TV.
I wouldn't go as far as to describe this as a "glaring omission," although it would be a nice feature to have if you don't already have a media player.
There was mention way back when the USB functionality, or lack of it, was first mentioned and the YouView "official response" suggested that enhancements would be made: "The USB ports are currently only available for engineer software maintenance but they are available to YouView and the device manufacturers to support new features that will be added in future software updates."
This was in a post from Gary P on page 1 of this thread, dated 20 September 2012. Perhaps its time YouView gave us an update?
For me, the lack of video playback via USB is a glaring omission and one that prevents the platform from being an all-in-one solution that turns an old TV into a smart TV.
For me, the lack of video playback via USB is a glaring omission and one that prevents the platform from being an all-in-one solution that turns an old TV into a smart TV.
Exactly Chris. Considering the non-Youview Humax has this function.
For me, the lack of video playback via USB is a glaring omission and one that prevents the platform from being an all-in-one solution that turns an old TV into a smart TV.
I can't ever see the USB ports being put to any use. Even my old first gen Humax Freesat box you could use a memory stick to transfer recordings..
For me, the lack of video playback via USB is a glaring omission and one that prevents the platform from being an all-in-one solution that turns an old TV into a smart TV.
Sanj / Phil / Piers, are update on this long standing user request? We have a perfectly usable USB socket on all our boxes and previous Humax boxes used theirs so why can't Youview boxes do the same??
For me, the lack of video playback via USB is a glaring omission and one that prevents the platform from being an all-in-one solution that turns an old TV into a smart TV.
Sanj / Phil / Piers - Any real update on this user request? Being able to use the USB ports would be a real bonus.
For me, the lack of video playback via USB is a glaring omission and one that prevents the platform from being an all-in-one solution that turns an old TV into a smart TV.
I am an early user of You View had mine for two and a half years. I bought this box based on the fact that it was a Humax box and my brother having a similar 'standard' Humax device and his satisfaction with it. I saw the USB sockets on the box and the thought never crossed my mind that they were of no use. Rather like buying a car with a towing hitch only to discover that its plastic and only there for appearance sake (yes I know the engineers can use the USB socket before someone tells me).
This really has annoyed me because once the You View box has a fault and I had to do a full factory reset so lost all my recording some of a series I had only partly seen.
I have had numerous niggling faults with the box, the pink screen issue, the occasional hang up when it will do nothing and has to be switched off and on again, so damn great when this usually happens when I am about to start recording a programme.
The box should have been good, but I rate it as one of my worst purchases ever. Badly thought out, badly implemented. But the USB socket really annoys me to distraction.
Comments
Surely thats the idea of having a recording device, to be able to store and view later? Is it not?
I accept what you say about iplayer but to be able to go back up to a week and access missed programmes is fine, but not if you've missed one in a series you wish to record. The device is a recorder I repeat.
So with iplayer, 4OD, etc you are offered more - not less, such are you are implying. Different, but more IMHO.
I see your point, but I really don't see it as a great hardship. After all these days of 24hr TV, pretty much everything is repeated at some time or other. You just have to wait for the next bus to arrive.
TBH, I'd much rather they look at getting the USB activated for what it should be used for, as per the OPs, post, rather than further complications
Yes I accept what you say but my point is that the statement saying the ip TV and the terrestrial TV are treated the same is wrong. Simply that.
Anyway my views are probably no longer relevant because my box has recently been disposed of simply because I object to waiting for not just enhancements but for basic facilities to be made available........USB......which is never going to happen.
wrt your last point - I totally agree. All we seem to be able to do is b1tch about it unfortunately (myself included)
Adieu.
John
And as an extension of this they supposed that if they allowed playback from a USB device the punters would then demand that it worked in the opposite direction.DRM copyright management is perfectly adequately complied with by Humax's HD/R Fox T2 series. None of the broadcast content partners have problems with their use of encoding on the HD recordings which makes the USB copy only playable using the original recorder.
Humax have just brought out a single tuner " < free time > " satellite box here which, like the HD Fox T2, can be used as a PVR by adding a USB external hard drive.
It's not a question of "allowing" USB playback - it's implementing the USB playback feature mandated in YV's base specification.
And as an extension of this they supposed that if they allowed playback from a USB device the punters would then demand that it worked in the opposite direction.This is just words, surely its simply telling Humax to make use of code they already have and use on their existing machines. But lets not bother waste any more time, they're not going to do it.
You seem already aware the Humax boxes have an additional maintenance menu (I wonder if the people reply to emails for technical queries at Humax have been told yet) It is indeed kludgy to get into. Yet the YV base specification allows manufacturer specific sub-menus from the standard ones. No reason whatsoever I can think of that a link to the Humax maintenance mode could be added so fewer people wipe their recordings when there could be an alternative remedy.
I think the real problem is their dogmatic sticking to all users having the same "look and feel" so they can change boxes or use one elsewhere and be totally familiar. That has broken down somewhat now only the retail Humax boxes have the accessibility options like hi-vis menus. I wonder if that was so they could go to the BBC Trust (who I understand had laid down conditions on the BBC's continued participation including accessibility being on stream by a certain date) with a retail box and say "look, we've done it". You may also note Susie makes great play of this in the techradar interview:
"We have been doing quite a bit of work surrounding accessibility, working really closely with the RNIB (Royal National Institute of the Blind) and with Scope and we have added a number of features that will help blind users and users with other disabilities." The accessibility option to change color scheme is very useful - I can instantly identify if I'm using the Humax or Huawei LOL. Pity BT and TalkTalk customers with disabilities are still discriminated against because of them.
I see they still have the same old exaggerated full price claims to fool the casual customer - £149 for a cut down zapper with a chip stuck in it that costs only £30 less than a real, fully FVHD+ spec compliant including the 2011 revision with a 500Gb drive from Humax - or enough to get 3 of their own YV PVR boxes from that "well known auction site"?
While we are still expressing surprise at that large numbers of elderly shoe repair operatives, how do you translate this from Piers Lomax in the interview? (the 'normalcy' is a consistent picture quality between broadcast and IPTV channels).
"This striving for normalcy, according to Lomax, is the reason given for YouView not yet offering Wi-Fi on its boxes. He believes that Wi-Fi works in some places but "in an awful lot of households, Wi-Fi just isn't reliable yet."
"There isn't the consistently high bandwidth to offer high-definition pictures and it is really important that we have a reliable service. People are used to TV pictures that don't break up so with this in mind wired, for us, is the best solution at the moment," said Lomax
"If YouView boxes do become Wi-Fi enabled it is because we have worked out how to deliver really great quality pictures through a wireless connection."
Now I am not Youview's Head of Engineering so pardon my ignorance, but I was under the impression that in a properly working wifi setup on N specification (like my Huawei YV box connected using a router as a bridge), the speed of connections depends heavily on the "wi" conditions and very little, if anything, to do with the box beyond the (USB) input.
If the (required by the base specification) dongle is working, its a combination of distance from the main router. the strength of the transmitted signals, aerial efficiency radio frequency blocking objects/walls/or possibly people between the dongle and router antennas but, most of all I believe, the number of other networks locally who share the wifi channel.
I am sitting here - my flat is in a small low block of about 30 flats watching the dancing graph of the local network strengths. We have extremely efficient RF signal blocking outside walls - >60 cm of solid masonry (there are also similar arched piers down the middle of the buildings. (I am 8Km from Crystal Palace with direct line of sight but from the opposite side of the block. None of the muxes penetrate the two masonry walls and two plasterboard walls between me and the site using the highest power transmitters in the UK).
Despite this shielding my phone can "see" up to 15 wifi networks at one time so here's a few hints Lomax might like to be exploring with YV's ISP partners at least at first.
I am the only one using a channel in the 5GHz band - any dongle and ISP supplied router should support this band. Initial setups should be attempted on 5Ghz, even if at the end of the day there are problems with the more fragile signals being blocked, They can always default to one of the freer channels in the 2.4 GHz band.
Try getting TalkTalk to get their default channel switched from Channel 11 but not to Channel 6 which Orange, Virginmedia and BT hog or Channel 1 (Sky) - if they do not like being named and shamed, try setting unique customer-decided names for their wifi network. Guess what; the three wifi networks that are the only users on their channels have names indicating who owns it, not something like "TALKTALK-56BC63" or, as in one case I see "BT Wifi". Incidentally, how the **** is a casual user supposed to log on easily using a new wifi device if they cannot remember if their network ID is Virginmedia1547514859 or Virginmedia1547872859 -admit it, you had to check there are differences.
Web located manuals and help pages are an excellent idea to save resources - not if your broadband goes down so you cannot access the internet. (Hat tip to BT for at least having a page showing how to change settings on their Home Hubs.
Get them to ensure their installation engineers have a way of checking what channels are in heavy use in the locality - the free apps at least allow you to see that even if they are not entirely accurate.
Argos's method for delivering items to customers in their shops - fling it at them is a factory sealed box hoping it works and they know what to do - is not a definition of "engineer installation".
Somebody who can drive and has attended an intensive half day course to put an RF male plug in an RF socket, an RF female plug in a male socket, an HDMI lead in an HDMI socket, a 3 square pin plug in a wall socket and to find where the box's on button is located - then politely depart 5 minutes after walking through the door IS NOT an "installation engineer".
An extra 5 minutes explanation on installation saves an hour to follow up.
But I take your point about engineer installs. My BT Openreach Infinity engineer was clearly self employed, who wanted a quick in-and-out jobby.
He didn't get away with it.
There was mention way back when the USB functionality, or lack of it, was first mentioned and the YouView "official response" suggested that enhancements would be made: "The USB ports are currently only available for engineer software maintenance but they are available to YouView and the device manufacturers to support new features that will be added in future software updates."
This was in a post from Gary P on page 1 of this thread, dated 20 September 2012. Perhaps its time YouView gave us an update?
I bought this box based on the fact that it was a Humax box and my brother having a similar 'standard' Humax device and his satisfaction with it. I saw the USB sockets on the box and the thought never crossed my mind that they were of no use. Rather like buying a car with a towing hitch only to discover that its plastic and only there for appearance sake (yes I know the engineers can use the USB socket before someone tells me).
This really has annoyed me because once the You View box has a fault and I had to do a full factory reset so lost all my recording some of a series I had only partly seen.
I have had numerous niggling faults with the box, the pink screen issue, the occasional hang up when it will do nothing and has to be switched off and on again, so damn great when this usually happens when I am about to start recording a programme.
The box should have been good, but I rate it as one of my worst purchases ever. Badly thought out, badly implemented. But the USB socket really annoys me to distraction.