Trash folder and undelete option

KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭
edited 14 April 2017, 6:24PM in Feedback
*** Summarised idea from trials process ***

Occasionally you may delete a recording by accident or realise you want it back soon after for some other reason (e.g. someone else in the household also wanted to see it and you did not realise when you deleted it).

A possible solution is a simple deleted items folder or trash can holding say the last 3-5 deleted items. When in the trash can you could select an item to undelete it and restore it to the recordings list.
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Comments

  • stormystormy Member Posts: 1,026 ✭✭
    edited 3 March 2017, 6:12PM
    Just do it as the Sky+HD implementation, if it needs the disk space delete from the "undelete" folder as necessary starting with the oldest, if it doesn't just leave them in that folder.
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭
    edited 4 March 2017, 10:29AM
    The software update yesterday (30/10/2012) removed the confirmation step when deleting a recording. A number of people have raised concerns that this will lead to accidental deletions since there is no undelete function.

    Personally I am in favour of a one button delete but there should then be a mechanism to recover from a mistake by undeleting an item. As such I think the undelete feature idea now needs to be given a high priority as it really should have been introduced at the same time as the confirmation step on deletion was removed.
  • edited 26 September 2013, 8:33AM
    >> I think the undelete feature idea now needs to be given a high priority as it really should have been introduced at the same time as the confirmation step on deletion was removed.

    Agree, have no issue with the lack of an OK prompt but it's only truly an enhancement if you can undelete the recordings in the event of a mistake.
  • Matthew BaileyMatthew Bailey Member Posts: 105
    edited 21 February 2013, 4:27PM
    Personally I would prefer YouView just put back the confirmation on the delete button and then use their engineers time to implement some of the other much more useful features than a trash can.

    Yes in an ideal world the "trash can" suggestion is a good idea, but we have many more important issues that need to be sorted first.
  • CiceroCicero Member Posts: 345
    edited 31 October 2012, 9:38AM

    Personally I would prefer YouView just put back the confirmation on the delete button and then use their engineers time to implement some of the other much more useful features than a trash can.

    Yes in an ideal world the "trash can" suggestion is a good idea, but we have many more important issues that need to be sorted first.

    I agree, keep it simple.
  • gomezgomez Member Posts: 2,073 ✭✭
    edited 5 March 2017, 2:28PM
    I think deleting a single recording should have the confirmation. What they should be doing is working on a way to select and delete a number of recordings at once with a single confirmation for that which is how all my other PVRs do it.
  • CiceroCicero Member Posts: 345
    edited 31 October 2012, 9:41AM
    gomez said:

    I think deleting a single recording should have the confirmation. What they should be doing is working on a way to select and delete a number of recordings at once with a single confirmation for that which is how all my other PVRs do it.

    I agree with that too.
  • Dave71Dave71 Member Posts: 95
    edited 19 May 2013, 8:41PM
    Having a trash can would be useful for recovering accidental deletions, but I think the main problem is that it's now a bit too easy to accidentally delete recordings with the one-press delete.

    I'd like to see the original confirmation message; which is pretty much the industry-standard way to handle delete operations (especially ones you can't recover).

    Another issue with the one-press delete is that it's quite 'silent', and there's no on-screen feedback (other than the recordings shifting in the list). It's also quite responsive, so pressing the key quickly 3-4 times will delete 3-4 recordings.
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭
    edited 4 March 2017, 10:29AM
    I agree that the new delete behaviour is too silent. What I would expect it to do is instantly delete the item (without a confirmation step) and then put up a message clearly saying item deleted which would appear for say 1 second and thus make it obvious and block accidental rapid deletion. This still needs an undelete option though to recover from individual accidents.
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭
    edited 4 March 2017, 10:29AM
    Something that I would hope YouView would consider if they were to implement a trash folder and undelete system would be how the pruning and disk usage reporting should work.

    In its simplest form the delete/remove action would now be a move to a trash folder. Thus over time the trash folder would grow in size and the amount of spare disk space steadily decrease to zero. When the disk space gets to zero by default the auto delete option that is on would cause the oldest recordings (which would be in the trash) to start being deleted.

    Whilst that is a workable solution some users may prefer an option to control how much or how long trash is kept, e.g. to be able to configure that items are purged from trash after 7 days or 1 month or to say the trash folder may grow no bigger than 10% of the total disk space.

    Also the basic reliance on the main auto delete option being on means that is no longer really an option but a neccesity hence it would be better to have a separate purge of the trash (regardless of that option value) either when the disk is full or at some user configured time or quantity as in the previous paragraph.

    Coupled with this is then how the box reports free disk space. At present when one goes into the recording list there is a clear statement of the free space. If one implements the simple trash folder relying on the auto delete option then eventually you get into a state where you are running with a trash folder taking up all the previously free space and thus the free space report would indicate the disk was always almost full which would be concerning to see for some users.

    As such the free space report may need adjusting to exclude the trash folder from disk usage to give the user a better feel for how much space they have for recordings they are actively keeping (i.e. excluding those being kept in trash).
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭
    edited 4 March 2017, 10:29AM
    What does seem clear from this change and topic though is that one either needs to revert the delete change (to once again minimise the risk of accidents that way but at the cost of an extra key press for each delete) or add the complimentary change of an undelete option to deal with accidents instead.

    From my experience, generally implementing a trash system (i.e. changing removes to moves) and then a purging/reaper system is not that difficult, although of course this needs to have a simple user interface for the recover too which is more work, but does then need user testing to confirm it works as expected.

    Whilst overall I would prefer the later (i.e. quick delete but with an undelete option to cover mistakes and also for more general mistake issues even if a confirm step does exist) I can see that if it really were a lot of work to implement an undelete option then there are many other features YouView could choose to give a higher priority.

    Even if such a feature were to be implemented I can see that some people may still prefer to have a confirmation for each delete so I would suggest that would then become and option (either on or off by default depending on feedback YouView trialling produced).
  • edited 26 September 2013, 8:33AM
    Keith wrote:

    >>> As such the free space report may need adjusting to exclude the trash folder from disk usage to give the user a better feel for how much space they have for recordings they are actively keeping (i.e. excluding those being kept in trash).

    That's the way Virgin's TiVo works - once something is in the trash can the space it uses is excluded from the used/included in the free space indicator as if it's no longer still on the box.

    This leads to the annoyingly technically illiterate claim that 'deleted items use no space' when clearly they do, but that's something we techies just have to endure ;-)

    It keeps things simpler for the user who should never have to empty the trash as the box should always overwrite the oldest deleted recordings as and when more space is needed.

    IMO the trash can should be listed in MyView to the left of the recordings.
  • petkolpetkol Member Posts: 213
    edited 14 April 2017, 6:24PM
    I think it would help our understanding of this matter if Youview would explain / comment on the reasons for the change they have made, and for their reaction to the response to it seen here on the forum.

    As I wrote in the thread about the software update, was the change made as a result of the trial surveys? was it a result of user requests made directly? was it as a result of requests made on the forum (public or during the trials)? or was it for some other reason?
  • [removed][removed] Member Posts: 282
    edited 27 March 2013, 5:48PM
    Personally I'm quite happy as it is. If I may want to keep something I would record it on my FOX T2 box where I can back it up to a dongle
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭
    edited 4 March 2017, 10:29AM
    Whilst I cannot speak for YouView or explain their actions I can confirm that there were at least 3 topics in relation to a trash folder/undelete option on the trials forum and within those topics there were requests for this to be coupled with removing the need to confirm a deletion (but possibly as an option).

    My understanding is YouView have a set of testers (not the triallists from the summer) who are perhaps YouView and partner company employees etc plus potentially others and that they test changes or ideas for new features out on them/use them as a sounding board as one way to consider what to pursue.

    So, although I personally would like to have seen an undelete function launched simultaneously with the removal of the delete confirmation step, I would assume they did trial the change to the delete feature (without a corresponding undelete feature) and that they did not get significant negative feedback, did get positive feedback and thus decided it was a good change.
  • petkolpetkol Member Posts: 213
    edited 14 April 2017, 6:24PM
    As usual Keith, thanks for your balanced comments. I still think it would be very useful to understand the thinking behind removing the confirmation step, without providing any means to recover when mistakes are made. Youview, please respond.

    Personally, I think the implementation of a recycle bin / trash can would be the best solution. As there was / is no such facility at the moment, it seems a little premature to remove the 'are you sure' stage in deleting recorded programs.
  • Dave71Dave71 Member Posts: 95
    edited 19 May 2013, 8:45PM
    Bear in mind also that trash bin and confirmation aren't necessarily mutually exclusive; e.g. if you look at a Windows PC, it has both - the belt and braces approach.

    I'm assuming the one-press delete is to make deleting several recordings a bit quicker and less irritating; as it doesn't make that much difference when deleting only one or two items.
    If that's the reasoning, then would the ability to select and delete multiple items in one step be more useful? Then you could delete a batch of items without having to confirm each individual item, and not sacrifice any safety measures.

    Edit - I just realised gomez made the same point above.
  • petkolpetkol Member Posts: 213
    edited 14 April 2017, 6:24PM
    Good point Dave71, and gomez
  • sarumbear1sarumbear1 Member Posts: 315
    edited 13 November 2013, 10:01AM
    I personally detest the removal of the delete confirmation. YV box is often very slow to respond to commands and it is not possible not to delete a recording by mistake.

    You click on the delete button, nothing happens. You think you missed the button and click again. In fact what happens is the box was thinking of deleting the recording and as you clicked twice, after a delay, the 1st recording and the recording one below it is deleted.

    It is bonkers to think of single press delete as an improvement and cannot understand anyone arguing for it. You should never, ever make a destructive change to data without explicit confirmation. When did that rule stroke off?

    YV box has the best of intentions but it fails on the delivering them -- big time.
  • ScuttlebroomScuttlebroom Member Posts: 279
    edited 6 November 2012, 10:46AM

    I personally detest the removal of the delete confirmation. YV box is often very slow to respond to commands and it is not possible not to delete a recording by mistake.

    You click on the delete button, nothing happens. You think you missed the button and click again. In fact what happens is the box was thinking of deleting the recording and as you clicked twice, after a delay, the 1st recording and the recording one below it is deleted.

    It is bonkers to think of single press delete as an improvement and cannot understand anyone arguing for it. You should never, ever make a destructive change to data without explicit confirmation. When did that rule stroke off?

    YV box has the best of intentions but it fails on the delivering them -- big time.

    I agree Sarumbear, hopefully this can be rectified with the inclusion of a dustbin, but in the meantime, if you lock all of your recordings, then when you do press delete, it brings up the confirmation message, a pain I know to have to lock all your recordings, but i set myself the challenge every time I go into Recordings I look to see which ones haven't been padlocked and simply press the yellow button on them.
  • gomezgomez Member Posts: 2,073 ✭✭
    edited 6 November 2012, 11:07AM

    I personally detest the removal of the delete confirmation. YV box is often very slow to respond to commands and it is not possible not to delete a recording by mistake.

    You click on the delete button, nothing happens. You think you missed the button and click again. In fact what happens is the box was thinking of deleting the recording and as you clicked twice, after a delay, the 1st recording and the recording one below it is deleted.

    It is bonkers to think of single press delete as an improvement and cannot understand anyone arguing for it. You should never, ever make a destructive change to data without explicit confirmation. When did that rule stroke off?

    YV box has the best of intentions but it fails on the delivering them -- big time.

    It takes me back to having to break off the plastic tab on the back of a VHS tape then putting a bit of sellotape over the slot to allow reuse to record something else.
  • sarumbear1sarumbear1 Member Posts: 315
    edited 6 November 2012, 12:09PM

    I personally detest the removal of the delete confirmation. YV box is often very slow to respond to commands and it is not possible not to delete a recording by mistake.

    You click on the delete button, nothing happens. You think you missed the button and click again. In fact what happens is the box was thinking of deleting the recording and as you clicked twice, after a delay, the 1st recording and the recording one below it is deleted.

    It is bonkers to think of single press delete as an improvement and cannot understand anyone arguing for it. You should never, ever make a destructive change to data without explicit confirmation. When did that rule stroke off?

    YV box has the best of intentions but it fails on the delivering them -- big time.

    LOL. Look at the state these programmers and simply ignorant product managers put us in.
  • sarumbear1sarumbear1 Member Posts: 315
    edited 6 November 2012, 12:13PM
    Jesse (from YouView), please go and ask your programmer mates and the product manager why why they felt that they can make other changes, before sorting out the slow reaction times, feezes and crashes?

    Make the box work properly first!
  • stuart621stuart621 Member Posts: 616
    edited 17 November 2013, 7:05PM
    I'm quite happy for the single-key delete as long as there is an undelete or trash can option. If they do this, hopefully they can come up with a name a bit less American than 'Trash Can', though! :)
  • edited 25 April 2013, 7:54AM
    stuart621 said:

    I'm quite happy for the single-key delete as long as there is an undelete or trash can option. If they do this, hopefully they can come up with a name a bit less American than 'Trash Can', though! :)

    Recycle Bin? Deleted Shows?
  • stuart621stuart621 Member Posts: 616
    edited 6 November 2012, 6:59PM
    stuart621 said:

    I'm quite happy for the single-key delete as long as there is an undelete or trash can option. If they do this, hopefully they can come up with a name a bit less American than 'Trash Can', though! :)

    Either of those is better than 'trash can' IMO :)
  • Bilbo BagginsBilbo Baggins Member Posts: 177
    edited 6 November 2012, 9:44PM
    stuart621 said:

    I'm quite happy for the single-key delete as long as there is an undelete or trash can option. If they do this, hopefully they can come up with a name a bit less American than 'Trash Can', though! :)

    The correct name for the UK sector is 'Wastebasket' or if you're ultra-modern 'Wheelie Bin' but that's just ridiculous!
  • stuart621stuart621 Member Posts: 616
    edited 6 November 2012, 9:46PM
    stuart621 said:

    I'm quite happy for the single-key delete as long as there is an undelete or trash can option. If they do this, hopefully they can come up with a name a bit less American than 'Trash Can', though! :)

    Oh I don't know. If they use "wheelie bin" you could delete items from there once you're "wheelie" sure you don't want them. :)

    I'll get me coat...
  • edited 25 April 2013, 7:54AM
    stuart621 said:

    I'm quite happy for the single-key delete as long as there is an undelete or trash can option. If they do this, hopefully they can come up with a name a bit less American than 'Trash Can', though! :)

    Maybe we could just call it 'Deleted' ?
  • Bilbo BagginsBilbo Baggins Member Posts: 177
    edited 6 November 2012, 11:58PM
    stuart621 said:

    I'm quite happy for the single-key delete as long as there is an undelete or trash can option. If they do this, hopefully they can come up with a name a bit less American than 'Trash Can', though! :)

    lol Martin - but a few words can keep it simple, icon of a bin and something like clear, delete, dispose, discard, dismiss, eliminate, erase, wipe should do it, I deffo think it should have a 'Are you Sure' option (option to turn off in Settings for you hardcore)
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