Software updates: Provide more flexibility/options for users

Nick

Hi,

It seems to me that the majority of problems caused on peoples Youview machines after automatic software updates is because the update was done whilst something else happened to:
a) Power
b) Network traffic
c) Background tasks (recordings, etc) were being done

It's the same problem that hits all hardware where a firmware update is downloaded to a user site where you don't have full control of the infrastructure. This is why game consoles all say "Please do not turn off your machine" and PCs prompt the user at every stage.

With this in mind I would highly recommend that the Youview software update mechanism be changed to provide the following options in order of preference (with appropriate explanations when selected by the user):

1. Download updates for me, but let me choose when to install them (recommended)
2. Notify me about updates but don't automatically download or install them
3. Automatically download updates and install them (not recommended)

Rather than forcing the box to perform a fully firmware update and installation with no user involvement I would recommend that the default option would be download updates but do NOT install them. This would provide a useful safety measure in the procedure - all firmware update files would be ready for an update with or without a network connection. (The "Check for update" option in Device management would check for a locally stored installation first).

For each option listed above:

1. The Youview box would download any software update files overnight then prompt the user at startup saying "A software update has been download and is ready to be installed. Would you like to install it now?" with options for either now or remind me in 7 days.
2. The Youview box would set a locally stored flag instead of downloading the software files which indicates that files are available for download. The box would then prompt the user at startup saying "A new software update has been detected and is ready for downloading. Would you like to download it now?" with options for either now or remind me in 7 days. If the user selects Yes then the files are downloaded BUT rather than automatically installing them it then prompts the user "Would you like to install the software update now?" with options for either now or remind me later (later being when the box starts up).
3. Current operation - To be honest I'm not very comfortable about having a machine perform an automatic firmware update and installation without some degree of control.

What does everyone else think?

gomez

As the automatic update check is done in the middle of the night (ie 3am) then I doubt that concurrent background tasks such as recording are implicated in any issues arising.

Not sure what you mean by Power? Power glitches can happen at any time but if they are so frequent as to often co-incide with an update check then I suggest the user really needs to get their power supply sorted out as priority one.

I suppose if you are scheduling large downloads overnight then that may impact on an Youview update but if it is then that suggest a problem with the user's internet connection or local network set up. One option would be to be pause the downloads over that 3am update check for say 10/15 minutes tops.

All that said I would rather it allowed you to turn off the automatic update check (from High Eco standby mode at least) and do it instead when it is first brought out of full standby each day which is sort of a fourth option to those you suggest and which I would be happy to see offered.

gomez

Tweak to my suggestion above: On closedown, if the next recording event is more than 24 hours away then *do* schedule a one-off overnight update check. That way it will pick up new software with possibly critical fixes (arising from broadcast stream changes triggering faults for example) while the user is away for several days.

Technogran

May I add to this? I would also like YouView to seriously consider allowing users to download updates on their PC to a USB dongle so that they could then apply said update at their own convenience. This seemed to work well with the previous Humax unit, and other PVR's that allowed update installation via USB (such as when I owned the 3View unit for another example)
Of course, this surmises that the owner has a PC of some description. I also think that this is one of the big issues with using the internet for software updates etc, and I personally have had bad updates to other software occur because either the internet was busy (so time of day when downloading can effect a software download) etc. It's not the foolproof method that many think it is, as there are many variables that can effect the download.

Nick

gomez said:

As the automatic update check is done in the middle of the night (ie 3am) then I doubt that concurrent background tasks such as recording are implicated in any issues arising.

Not sure what you mean by Power? Power glitches can happen at any time but if they are so frequent as to often co-incide with an update check then I suggest the user really needs to get their power supply sorted out as priority one.

I suppose if you are scheduling large downloads overnight then that may impact on an Youview update but if it is then that suggest a problem with the user's internet connection or local network set up. One option would be to be pause the downloads over that 3am update check for say 10/15 minutes tops.

All that said I would rather it allowed you to turn off the automatic update check (from High Eco standby mode at least) and do it instead when it is first brought out of full standby each day which is sort of a fourth option to those you suggest and which I would be happy to see offered.

Hi Gomez, when i say power i meant when there was a power outage during the firmware update creating a Fubar situation that only a factory reset or return to base will fix.

Nick

Technogran said:

May I add to this? I would also like YouView to seriously consider allowing users to download updates on their PC to a USB dongle so that they could then apply said update at their own convenience. This seemed to work well with the previous Humax unit, and other PVR's that allowed update installation via USB (such as when I owned the 3View unit for another example)
Of course, this surmises that the owner has a PC of some description. I also think that this is one of the big issues with using the internet for software updates etc, and I personally have had bad updates to other software occur because either the internet was busy (so time of day when downloading can effect a software download) etc. It's not the foolproof method that many think it is, as there are many variables that can effect the download.

TGran, agree totally with this as it would allow for greater flexibility as well as allowing people to update their box without a dedicated broadband line (my dad being a prime example).

churchwarden

All the above suggestions are very good, and indicate that the area of installing an update is a potential area of weakness, possibly prone to causing problems itself. I experienced such a problem, and managed to sort it myself, but then again, having started in computing in 1966, I am quite technically competent.
Not every user of the YouView box has that profile, and, indeed, I doubt if Mrs Trellis of North Wales (and this box is targeted at just such people) would be capable of even understanding some of these options.
Almost every time I visited my mother, when new channels became available, I would switch her TV on to be greeted with the message "New channels are available - do you want to update". She always said something like "That's been appearing for the past couple of weeks - I just get rid of it", being afraid to say "yes".
However, given the time and confusion caused by a faulty update installation, I agree that the process needs to be made more robust, if possible.
As I don't know what checks are currently performed during the update process, I cannot be more specific on how this should be achieved, but perhaps a combination of some of the above, a review of the current process by YouView for potential points of failure and rectifying them, and a plan to make the whole process more protected against failure may be a way forward.
Given the fact that the box is aimed at the less technical user for the most part, I think it is desirable to have the process be robust enough for an automatic installation,with all the checks and balances being performed to ensure success, which would obviate the need for most of the alternate options.
YouView could also provide some of the above suggestions as options for the more technically competent, although a more robust update system would render this somewhat redundant.

Nick

churchwarden said:

All the above suggestions are very good, and indicate that the area of installing an update is a potential area of weakness, possibly prone to causing problems itself. I experienced such a problem, and managed to sort it myself, but then again, having started in computing in 1966, I am quite technically competent.
Not every user of the YouView box has that profile, and, indeed, I doubt if Mrs Trellis of North Wales (and this box is targeted at just such people) would be capable of even understanding some of these options.
Almost every time I visited my mother, when new channels became available, I would switch her TV on to be greeted with the message "New channels are available - do you want to update". She always said something like "That's been appearing for the past couple of weeks - I just get rid of it", being afraid to say "yes".
However, given the time and confusion caused by a faulty update installation, I agree that the process needs to be made more robust, if possible.
As I don't know what checks are currently performed during the update process, I cannot be more specific on how this should be achieved, but perhaps a combination of some of the above, a review of the current process by YouView for potential points of failure and rectifying them, and a plan to make the whole process more protected against failure may be a way forward.
Given the fact that the box is aimed at the less technical user for the most part, I think it is desirable to have the process be robust enough for an automatic installation,with all the checks and balances being performed to ensure success, which would obviate the need for most of the alternate options.
YouView could also provide some of the above suggestions as options for the more technically competent, although a more robust update system would render this somewhat redundant.

Hi Churchwarden, i can see your point but what if the auto update messed up your mum's YV box for some reason? Surely having a two stage process, like the tv channels prompt you mentioned, would be better.

As long as the prompt was user friendly and defaulted to 7 days reminder if the user cancelled the prompt then it should be OK.

sam1

"I would also like YouView to seriously consider allowing users to download updates on their PC to a USB dongle so that they could then apply said update at their own convenience."

I would also favour this solution.

churchwarden

churchwarden said:

All the above suggestions are very good, and indicate that the area of installing an update is a potential area of weakness, possibly prone to causing problems itself. I experienced such a problem, and managed to sort it myself, but then again, having started in computing in 1966, I am quite technically competent.
Not every user of the YouView box has that profile, and, indeed, I doubt if Mrs Trellis of North Wales (and this box is targeted at just such people) would be capable of even understanding some of these options.
Almost every time I visited my mother, when new channels became available, I would switch her TV on to be greeted with the message "New channels are available - do you want to update". She always said something like "That's been appearing for the past couple of weeks - I just get rid of it", being afraid to say "yes".
However, given the time and confusion caused by a faulty update installation, I agree that the process needs to be made more robust, if possible.
As I don't know what checks are currently performed during the update process, I cannot be more specific on how this should be achieved, but perhaps a combination of some of the above, a review of the current process by YouView for potential points of failure and rectifying them, and a plan to make the whole process more protected against failure may be a way forward.
Given the fact that the box is aimed at the less technical user for the most part, I think it is desirable to have the process be robust enough for an automatic installation,with all the checks and balances being performed to ensure success, which would obviate the need for most of the alternate options.
YouView could also provide some of the above suggestions as options for the more technically competent, although a more robust update system would render this somewhat redundant.

Hi Nick. My point was it wouldn't have mattered if I hadn't visited my mother for 6 months - she would still have kept cancelling it, bless her. Just one message when she switched on - "don't know about these technical things - just get rid of it" - cancel.
I am suggesting that rather than trying to work around what seems to be a possible problem, we should first do our best to ensure that the problem is avoided. Far better, given the target audience, to have any update installed automatically, without the potential confusion for totally non-technical - even technophobic customers. The less interaction, the less confusion.
If the system were made robust, then the failure rate should be very low (and it should be low anyway), and in those circumstances where it did fail, then a call to support would be the alternative option.
Unfortunately, when I made my call to Humax support, (as advised) it was obvious the person I spoke to didn't understand the problem, and I gave up and sorted it myself, thankfully not bricking the box, as happened to some others.

Nick

churchwarden said:

All the above suggestions are very good, and indicate that the area of installing an update is a potential area of weakness, possibly prone to causing problems itself. I experienced such a problem, and managed to sort it myself, but then again, having started in computing in 1966, I am quite technically competent.
Not every user of the YouView box has that profile, and, indeed, I doubt if Mrs Trellis of North Wales (and this box is targeted at just such people) would be capable of even understanding some of these options.
Almost every time I visited my mother, when new channels became available, I would switch her TV on to be greeted with the message "New channels are available - do you want to update". She always said something like "That's been appearing for the past couple of weeks - I just get rid of it", being afraid to say "yes".
However, given the time and confusion caused by a faulty update installation, I agree that the process needs to be made more robust, if possible.
As I don't know what checks are currently performed during the update process, I cannot be more specific on how this should be achieved, but perhaps a combination of some of the above, a review of the current process by YouView for potential points of failure and rectifying them, and a plan to make the whole process more protected against failure may be a way forward.
Given the fact that the box is aimed at the less technical user for the most part, I think it is desirable to have the process be robust enough for an automatic installation,with all the checks and balances being performed to ensure success, which would obviate the need for most of the alternate options.
YouView could also provide some of the above suggestions as options for the more technically competent, although a more robust update system would render this somewhat redundant.

The problem may be around the box downloading an update, then forcing a restart before downloading a secondary change. Downloading all changes first, then applying them in sequence locally may be a possible solution to firm up auto updates.

Phoenix

Hi Gomez, I for one quite often record stuff at 3am. So I would prefer the facility to download and install updates at my convenience.

gomez

gomez said:

As the automatic update check is done in the middle of the night (ie 3am) then I doubt that concurrent background tasks such as recording are implicated in any issues arising.

Not sure what you mean by Power? Power glitches can happen at any time but if they are so frequent as to often co-incide with an update check then I suggest the user really needs to get their power supply sorted out as priority one.

I suppose if you are scheduling large downloads overnight then that may impact on an Youview update but if it is then that suggest a problem with the user's internet connection or local network set up. One option would be to be pause the downloads over that 3am update check for say 10/15 minutes tops.

All that said I would rather it allowed you to turn off the automatic update check (from High Eco standby mode at least) and do it instead when it is first brought out of full standby each day which is sort of a fourth option to those you suggest and which I would be happy to see offered.

Planned or unplanned power outage? An unplanned outage is just as likely to cause a problem during a manually started update as an automatic one.

Roy

Technogran said:

May I add to this? I would also like YouView to seriously consider allowing users to download updates on their PC to a USB dongle so that they could then apply said update at their own convenience. This seemed to work well with the previous Humax unit, and other PVR's that allowed update installation via USB (such as when I owned the 3View unit for another example)
Of course, this surmises that the owner has a PC of some description. I also think that this is one of the big issues with using the internet for software updates etc, and I personally have had bad updates to other software occur because either the internet was busy (so time of day when downloading can effect a software download) etc. It's not the foolproof method that many think it is, as there are many variables that can effect the download.

TG, updates can be done via USB as the boxes stand now, and this has been used in the past for some limited-release test updates sent out by Humax.

So the only bit missing for your idea to work is for YouView to make releases available for PC download.

Technogran

Technogran said:

May I add to this? I would also like YouView to seriously consider allowing users to download updates on their PC to a USB dongle so that they could then apply said update at their own convenience. This seemed to work well with the previous Humax unit, and other PVR's that allowed update installation via USB (such as when I owned the 3View unit for another example)
Of course, this surmises that the owner has a PC of some description. I also think that this is one of the big issues with using the internet for software updates etc, and I personally have had bad updates to other software occur because either the internet was busy (so time of day when downloading can effect a software download) etc. It's not the foolproof method that many think it is, as there are many variables that can effect the download.

I wasn't aware of this Roy! Where are these updates from? I am obviously talking about the YouView updates and wonder if they could utilise the Humax method if that is already in place? If we have a relative for example who doesn't have access to broadband, then we could download said update to the USB dongle, then update their machine for them so its kept up to date.

Roy

Technogran said:

May I add to this? I would also like YouView to seriously consider allowing users to download updates on their PC to a USB dongle so that they could then apply said update at their own convenience. This seemed to work well with the previous Humax unit, and other PVR's that allowed update installation via USB (such as when I owned the 3View unit for another example)
Of course, this surmises that the owner has a PC of some description. I also think that this is one of the big issues with using the internet for software updates etc, and I personally have had bad updates to other software occur because either the internet was busy (so time of day when downloading can effect a software download) etc. It's not the foolproof method that many think it is, as there are many variables that can effect the download.

It was a while ago, and just for some specific purpose; Humax had a patch you could apply for. I've tried to search for the posting, but I cannot work the famously bad GS search option, and Google does not turn it up either.

Perhaps Keith could find it for us? He seems to know how to work the search here (and I'd like him to post his tips on doing that, if there's a secret to it).

But in the meantime, here's a reference I did find:

http://community.youview.com/youview/...

At the moment, we don't have the infrastructure for patch distribution by PC, and we have the complication that we have the three strands, BT TT and Retail, and each download would need to be checked to ensure it was compatible with the box it was being installed on.

But it should be doable. Certainly, it works for my Samsung TV, where you get the option of USB, immediate Internet download, or deferred Internet download; and an early Smarthub problem I had was solved by Samsung giving me the URL for a patch that I put on a USB stick and loaded, before that patch was generally available for Internet download direct to the TV.

sam1

"TG, updates can be done via USB as the boxes stand now, and this has been used in the past for some limited-release test updates sent out by Humax.

So the only bit missing for your idea to work is for YouView to make releases available for PC download."

This is news to me and it leaves me feeling exasperated. The logical thing would be for updates to be issued by the manufacturer, who in Humax's case and probably Huawei has had experience in handling updates. It might go a lot more smoothly if the manufacturer was allowed to issue the updates.

Piers

Hi sam - updates are usually issued by manufacturers directly from their servers, and can also in theory be installed via USB. Humax have provided software on USB in the past.

But YouView does co-ordinate the process, and this does make it run more smoothly I can assure you. Humax and Huawei have some experience with rolling out software but YouView boxes need to communicate with YouView servers and things wouldn't go so well if we just left it to the manufacturers alone.

Piers

Nick and others - there are some good ideas posted here, but the system we have works well for most people, and as designed should work for everyone who has an internet connection.

YouView boxes download new software in the background, verify that they got it correctly, and stores it in a spare software "bank" so you can't damage a box by turning it off during the process. From reports on the forum, we see that it's not working perfectly for some Humax customers, and we're already talking to their engineers about those problems.

sam1

Piers, thanks for the reply but I still would like the option of updating via USB and hope that that will be considered at some point in the future.

Keith

Roy 1 hour ago

It was a while ago, and just for some specific purpose; Humax had a patch you could apply for. I've tried to search for the posting, but I cannot work the famously bad GS search option, and Google does not turn it up either.

Perhaps Keith could find it for us? He seems to know how to work the search here (and I'd like him to post his tips on doing that, if there's a secret to it).

The fix Roy is thinking of was the fix for lost channels last year. Given the severity of the issue for those affected it was made available from Humax upon request until it was available to push out in a normal update. The relevant post is

http://community.youview.com/youview/...

Humax offered that fix by sending out a USB pen disk and later via download (but only by giving out a URL individually to the person and not posting the information publicly for anyone to use).

As for how I find things on the forum I made a few comments recently at

http://community.youview.com/youview/...

which probably does not really help people much as it basically boils down to vague buried memory/awareness being recalled when seeing new topics/queries and then having enough grasp of what the old topic was about to construct a useful search phrase to dig it out via the GS search box (or failing that one can do a Google search restricted to the forum site as google can sometimes do better although I generally managed fine with the GS search box).

Piers

It's already a feature on the box, but not something that Humax do routinely. If a large number of people request it, it's possible that Humax could support that in the future, and if you don't have any way to update via the internet I'm sure they'll be able to send you a download link or USB key.

Keith

An extra check I would like to see when doing an update is a check for recordings in process. Leaving the box to do the update overnight of course means it is highly likely to not be recording anything but not certain. If one manually searches for an update then it is more likely to be in the day and you may have a recording in progress. I did this for the recent update and the box restarted at the end at which point I realised someone else in the household had a recording in progress that was now stopped. I quickly restarted the recording and in fact there was a +1 channel with the programme that the box then automatically also recorded in full so no harm done but a check to prevent the reboot until no recordings are occurring could be nice to avoid such issues.

Piers

Hi Keith. All YouView boxes are designed to do this, and it's one of the things that we've flagged to Humax. We all agree that only updating and restarting when the box is in standby and *not* recording is the right thing to do.

sam1

"It's already a feature on the box, but not something that Humax do routinely. If a large number of people request it, it's possible that Humax could support that in the future.."

Thanks, how would I go about requesting it from Humax? Should I email them? I'd like to add my vote.

Nick

FYI: I've just created a new ideas thread asking for the ability to download any future software updates for installing via the USB slot. Your votes/comments would be welcome!
http://community.youview.com/youview/...

sam1

Nick - maybe I got it wrong but I thought Piers said it's Humax that has to be asked to support this.

Nick

sam1 said:

Nick - maybe I got it wrong but I thought Piers said it's Humax that has to be asked to support this.

Hi Sam, i thought it read that while the manufacturers have and can do it themselves it becomes confusing and un-coordinated. Having a single point of contact would make it easier. If it helped to stop boxes being borked it would be a start

churchwarden

Any update process such as the YouView update has a potential to fail - just look at the number of people who update their smart phones and brick them!
Although we have no statistics, I suspect the number of failed YouView updates is proportionately extremely small, although for those who do have a fail, of course, it is a major problem.
I did read through a thread relating to the HDR-1000S where people were bemoaning the fact that their update had failed, so Humax are not 100% solid themselves.
My experience has been that the updates, when they arrived via the rolled-out update, for the most part, went smoothly. On the one occasion where it didn't there was an identifiable reason, and this was recoverable.
I think the current process is the most desirable one - especially given the fact that the YouView is a consumer box aimed at the non-technical user - the less interaction from the user the better.
If YouView identify why a few of the box updates have fail, and make the process more robust in these areas, then I think we will have a very satisfactory process.

Roy

Piers2 said:

It's already a feature on the box, but not something that Humax do routinely. If a large number of people request it, it's possible that Humax could support that in the future, and if you don't have any way to update via the internet I'm sure they'll be able to send you a download link or USB key.

if you don't have any way to update via the internet I'm sure they'll be able to send you a download link...

"There's a hole in my bucket, dear Lisa, dear Lisa..." :-)

sam1

sam1 said:

Nick - maybe I got it wrong but I thought Piers said it's Humax that has to be asked to support this.

Hi Nick. Maybe you're right about what Piers meant. I agree with you about the single point of contact. In the meantime, since all I need is the Humax update, I plan to contact Humax and see what they say. I don't think they'll agree in my case -prob too much trouble for a single customer. I'll see what they say.