Loss of essential functionality and the Consumer Rights Act 2015

DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
edited 8 September 2017, 11:24AM in Feedback
I bought a Humax DTR-T2000 from John Lewis in September and was initially very pleased with it, my only niggle being that the hard drive chugs away quite noisily when watching or recording in HD.  The software and ease of use were actually better than I expected.  As a veteran of many set-top boxes I was pleasantly surprised by the whole YouView product.

Unfortunately like many people I was very disappointed with the "improved" software rolled out under NextGen.  For a multitude of reasons the box suddenly became a lot less easy and enjoyable to use.  Style seemed to have taken precedence over substance.  After reading about it on here I came to the conclusion that I would just have to get used to it and/or wait for the bugs and kinks to be ironed out.

More than a month having gone by, I contacted YouView this morning to ask specifically for a timescale on the promised reintroduction of the option to hide channels.  To my mind this is essential functionality and something I researched prior to purchase.  Less than two hours later I received a long reply by email, mostly about issues which I hadn't mentioned, and which had obviously been copied-and-pasted from a generic "complaints response" template.

The response I received (a) made no mention of the issue which I'd actually raised, (b) informed me that "YouView simply provides the software for yourHumax box and we are not the retailer in this case", and (c) referred me to their terms of service, which "must be accepted".  All of this leads me to believe that YouView are in no hurry to repair or reinstate the functionality which has been affected by this software "upgrade".

I took this to be a giant Microsoft-style "take it or leave it" to a paying customer, and I'm not having it.  Part 1 of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) states that goods (including digital content, i.e. software) must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.  As far as I am concerned, removal of core functionality after the point of sale contravenes this legislation and I will be contacting the retailer John Lewis to request a full refund.

There are a number of clauses within YouView's terms of service which seek to get around this but my understanding is that any contract terms which affect my statutory rights would be deemed unfair and non-binding.

I'd be interested to hear whether anyone else has gone down this road, and if so, how they got on.  More importantly, if, instead of complaining on internet forums, enough disgruntled customers make a fuss and hit YouView where it hurts (i.e. their reputation with retailers), they might think twice about acting in such a heavy-handed and unilateral way in future.
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Comments

  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,029 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 September 2017, 10:39AM
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,596 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 March 2017, 11:05AM
    No one has so far suggested the remedy of pursuing YouView as a tortfeasor.
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • Andrew CAndrew C Member Posts: 47
    edited 28 March 2017, 10:35AM
    Part 1 of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) states that goods (including digital content, i.e. software) must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.  As far as I am concerned, removal of core functionality after the point of sale contravenes this legislation and I will be contacting the retailer John Lewis to request a full refund.
    There are a number of clauses within YouView's terms of service which seek to get around this but my understanding is that any contract terms which affect my statutory rights would be deemed unfair and non-binding.
    Correct & Correct. As Visionman linked to, You are well within your rights to return said Item to the retailer, Never let companies tell you T&C's & TOS are above consumer/retail law, because they are not.
  • Andrew CAndrew C Member Posts: 47
    edited 28 March 2017, 10:20AM
    Roy1 said:

    No one has so far suggested the remedy of pursuing YouView as a tortfeasor.

    While a consumer could try this "wrongdoer approach", I feel YV/Humax/Huawei/BT/TalkTalk (as they are all named partners) would just try to rap you up in legal stalling etc, and hope the cost puts people off.

    It is just easier for the consumer to use their strongly defined consumer/statutory rights, no need to prove anything, other than the item is no longer as it was described at point of sale. (which with loss of actual advertised features, is not hard to do).
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,596 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 March 2017, 11:05AM
    Roy1 said:

    No one has so far suggested the remedy of pursuing YouView as a tortfeasor.

    It is indeed.

    But those rights can only be deployed against the retailer, or possibly the credit card company if you used a credit card, and as far as I know, no representatives of those are here present.
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 16 April 2017, 8:09AM
    I've just emailed John Lewis customer services about this.  I will let you know how they respond.  It seems obvious to me that legally they haven't a leg to stand on.  If they refuse me a refund I will take them to court.
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 16 April 2017, 8:09AM
    John Lewis have replied that "Having spoken to our technical department they have advise [sic] that this is an issue that would need to be dealt with by Humax".

    This is obviously complete nonsense both from a technical and consumer rights law perspective. I'm very disappointed (although not surprised) that a retailer of the stature of John Lewis would appear to be so ignorant of its statutory responsibilities.

    I have replied to that effect and offered them the opportunity to reconsider their response.
  • ChalkyChalky Member Posts: 3
    edited 2 April 2017, 11:13AM
    Taking someone to court because you can't hide channels on your set top box. By the time it gets there this function will probably be available. Lol
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 10 September 2017, 3:29PM
    Yes I most certainly will take someone to court if they sell me faulty goods and then refuse to refund me. If I wanted a box with reduced functionality I would have bought a cheaper one.

    If more people stood up for their rights instead of just moaning on Internet forums, companies like YouView wouldn't think that they could do whatever they like.
  • ChalkyChalky Member Posts: 3
    edited 2 April 2017, 9:58AM
    They've made a mistake, it will be rectified, you can still watch tv via your Youview box. Good luck lol
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 16 April 2017, 8:09AM
    I can "still watch TV" without any box at all. That's totally beside the point.

    If I may say so you don't really appear to understand the issue under discussion.
  • Carole HughesCarole Hughes Member Posts: 3
    edited 2 April 2017, 10:53AM
    Chalky said:

    Taking someone to court because you can't hide channels on your set top box. By the time it gets there this function will probably be available. Lol

    Are you able to make a reasonable and considered response other than lol?
  • ChalkyChalky Member Posts: 3
    edited 2 April 2017, 10:35AM
    Youview have made a mistake. In tying to improve their service they have made it worse for some people. They have confirmed they are working to rectify this. I don't see what the problem is and taking them to court about not being able to delete a few channels is absolutely hilarious. Complete storm in a teacup. LoL
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 16 April 2017, 8:09AM
    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,596 ✭✭✭
    edited 2 April 2017, 11:13AM
    Chalky said:

    Taking someone to court because you can't hide channels on your set top box. By the time it gets there this function will probably be available. Lol

    Try his previous sentence in that posting.

    Did you miss it, possibly?
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,596 ✭✭✭
    edited 2 April 2017, 11:19AM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    They will, over time, fix everything except the fundamental issue of Lists versus Tiles. They might bend in that direction given enough pressure, but even a free-diver would be ill-advised to hold their breath waiting.
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 2 April 2017, 11:46AM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    I asked them for a timescale and they couldn't give me one. I'm not prepared to wait indefinitely. This functionality should never have been removed in the first place. As Keynes said, in the long run, we are all dead.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,029 ✭✭✭
    edited 2 April 2017, 1:12PM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    There is not even a promise of waiting indefinitely. The tiles are staying, DP.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 2 April 2017, 1:15PM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    Although the tiles annoy me they don't constitute lost functionality.  It's the inability to hide channels which is the deal-breaker from my perspective.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,029 ✭✭✭
    edited 2 April 2017, 1:29PM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    May I ask why? 
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 2 April 2017, 1:39PM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    Because in my opinion 90% of the stuff on Freeview is rubbish (shopping channels, repeats, +1 channels and stuff I simply have no interest in), which makes looking for something to watch like looking for a needle in a haystack unless you can screen out the channels which don't interest you. I used to have Sky and loved their box but eventually got rid of it because it was impossible to sort the wheat from the chaff.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,029 ✭✭✭
    edited 2 April 2017, 1:48PM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    Thanks for that. Did you know NextGen has now introduced pageination? One can use the remotes channel up/down buttons to flick page-by-page on both the EPG and recordings list.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 2 April 2017, 2:00PM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    Useful but no substitute for simply being able to hide stuff you don't want.
  • mvemve Member Posts: 3
    edited 2 April 2017, 10:48PM

    They haven't made a mistake. They've knowingly and deliberately removed functionality thinking that people would just accept it. I asked them for a timescale for reinstating it and they said there wasn't one, so I am seeking a refund. Nothing hilarious about it. "Lol"

    Flicking page by page sounds great. If only I could do it. My set now takes minutes to respond to each keystroke on the recordings page. The new software seems useless if your internet speed is poor.
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 16 April 2017, 8:09AM
    John Lewis have come back to me (to be fair they have been very good at getting back to me quickly) and said that they have spoken with YouView and that "a patch will be released in the near future to restore [the hide channels option] fully". I have asked for clarification on the timescale for this, as I am not willing to wait indefinitely based on this vague assurance.

    They have also claimed that "as your recorder is working insomuch that it will receive channels and record broadcasts it would be considered from a legislative point of view as fit for purpose and as described" I have disputed this, as the "Your YouView Guide" product literature in front of me, which I researched prior to purchase, specifically refers to the "hide channels" functionality. This has been removed from the new version of this document (http://videos.youview.com/support/use...), which reinforces my lack of faith in YouView restoring this feature "in the near future" (or indeed ever).
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,446 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 April 2017, 1:20PM

    John Lewis have come back to me (to be fair they have been very good at getting back to me quickly) and said that they have spoken with YouView and that "a patch will be released in the near future to restore [the hide channels option] fully". I have asked for clarification on the timescale for this, as I am not willing to wait indefinitely based on this vague assurance.

    They have also claimed that "as your recorder is working insomuch that it will receive channels and record broadcasts it would be considered from a legislative point of view as fit for purpose and as described" I have disputed this, as the "Your YouView Guide" product literature in front of me, which I researched prior to purchase, specifically refers to the "hide channels" functionality. This has been removed from the new version of this document (http://videos.youview.com/support/use...), which reinforces my lack of faith in YouView restoring this feature "in the near future" (or indeed ever).

    Hi DunkirkPie - it is understandable that you expect clarity on this matter, and the best way to achieve this would be for YouView to make a clear statement with a definite (upper bound) time scale on the restoration of the hide channels feature.

    I was surprised this feature was not present at the launch of next gen, have been disappointed to see no significant changes have come through in the last four months to address some such issues, and that the current public message seems to strongly suggest none will come through until the roll out is complete (and that at the moment it looks like the roll out will complete in June).

    YouView have though stated that hiding channels, action panels and discover are all being actively worked on to be the first restored features and functional improvements following the roll out. Quite whether that means in July/August though or some time beyond that is so far sadly unclear.

    I wonder, if YouView are not ready to make a very specific time scale announcement, if they could now at least say something clearer than the current info, e.g. could they say 'all 3 of these features will return by December at the latest'? December would be a fairly long wait but at least something like that would be a start and they might refine that time scale with further announcements as we get towards the summer.
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 3 April 2017, 1:38PM

    John Lewis have come back to me (to be fair they have been very good at getting back to me quickly) and said that they have spoken with YouView and that "a patch will be released in the near future to restore [the hide channels option] fully". I have asked for clarification on the timescale for this, as I am not willing to wait indefinitely based on this vague assurance.

    They have also claimed that "as your recorder is working insomuch that it will receive channels and record broadcasts it would be considered from a legislative point of view as fit for purpose and as described" I have disputed this, as the "Your YouView Guide" product literature in front of me, which I researched prior to purchase, specifically refers to the "hide channels" functionality. This has been removed from the new version of this document (http://videos.youview.com/support/use...), which reinforces my lack of faith in YouView restoring this feature "in the near future" (or indeed ever).

    I totally agree with all of that. It's the sheer arrogance of their position that gets me. "We're going to remove these features, for no good reason, and we're not even going to enter into a discussion about when we might restore them". I'm amazed that the powers-that-be at YouView ever thought that was an acceptable course of action. I guess subscription customers (the majority) can always just switch to another provider, but those of us who forked out the thick end of £200 only a few months ago are stuffed.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,029 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 April 2017, 1:46PM

    John Lewis have come back to me (to be fair they have been very good at getting back to me quickly) and said that they have spoken with YouView and that "a patch will be released in the near future to restore [the hide channels option] fully". I have asked for clarification on the timescale for this, as I am not willing to wait indefinitely based on this vague assurance.

    They have also claimed that "as your recorder is working insomuch that it will receive channels and record broadcasts it would be considered from a legislative point of view as fit for purpose and as described" I have disputed this, as the "Your YouView Guide" product literature in front of me, which I researched prior to purchase, specifically refers to the "hide channels" functionality. This has been removed from the new version of this document (http://videos.youview.com/support/use...), which reinforces my lack of faith in YouView restoring this feature "in the near future" (or indeed ever).

    Believe me, Sky Q users aren't saying that....
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • DunkirkPieDunkirkPie Member Posts: 26
    edited 3 April 2017, 1:47PM

    John Lewis have come back to me (to be fair they have been very good at getting back to me quickly) and said that they have spoken with YouView and that "a patch will be released in the near future to restore [the hide channels option] fully". I have asked for clarification on the timescale for this, as I am not willing to wait indefinitely based on this vague assurance.

    They have also claimed that "as your recorder is working insomuch that it will receive channels and record broadcasts it would be considered from a legislative point of view as fit for purpose and as described" I have disputed this, as the "Your YouView Guide" product literature in front of me, which I researched prior to purchase, specifically refers to the "hide channels" functionality. This has been removed from the new version of this document (http://videos.youview.com/support/use...), which reinforces my lack of faith in YouView restoring this feature "in the near future" (or indeed ever).

    Saying what?
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,029 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 April 2017, 1:52PM

    John Lewis have come back to me (to be fair they have been very good at getting back to me quickly) and said that they have spoken with YouView and that "a patch will be released in the near future to restore [the hide channels option] fully". I have asked for clarification on the timescale for this, as I am not willing to wait indefinitely based on this vague assurance.

    They have also claimed that "as your recorder is working insomuch that it will receive channels and record broadcasts it would be considered from a legislative point of view as fit for purpose and as described" I have disputed this, as the "Your YouView Guide" product literature in front of me, which I researched prior to purchase, specifically refers to the "hide channels" functionality. This has been removed from the new version of this document (http://videos.youview.com/support/use...), which reinforces my lack of faith in YouView restoring this feature "in the near future" (or indeed ever).

    "I guess subscription customers (the majority) can always just switch to another provider."  Because they can't. As they too have lost a feature which many treasured. Their list view.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
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