[Discussion] BT software update 29.27.0

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  • Stompa said:
    dss03 said:
    YouView have stopped rollout of October 2017 update at ~10% due to bugs, including failure of HDMI auto switching.  They are working on a fix. I know because I just phoned them.
    Hmmm, I've not had the latest update, but have always found auto switching to be a bit flaky with earlier versions (even with old gen). It would work most of the time, but not always.

    Two points
    1. The update has clearly not been suspended as users are still getting it. I think a bit of trolling going on there with that post from the other day.
    2. HDMI-CEC has always been a flaky standard at the best of times right across the board. Almost every tv manufacturer has their own variation on it (eg. on Panasonic it's Viera Link). I don't believe any tv manufacturer has ever produced a foolproof way of achieving 100% implementation of CEC.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    edited 30 October 2017, 1:09AM
    Nick7 said:
    The edit channel feature just removes them from the guide, you can still select them to watch. Absolutely pointless update..!
    There are different versions of this update as there are different platforms. They all do the same same thing, which is hide channels in the guide only.
    On one of them, I was actually asked 'Do you think we should launch with this in the Guide only?'. To which I replied yes, as something is better than nothing. And it is.

    The project for hiding channels for and on everything is actually massive and will take some time. But they'll get there in the end.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    Visionman said:
    Nick7 said:
    The edit channel feature just removes them from the guide, you can still select them to watch. Absolutely pointless update..!
    There are different versions of this update as there are different platforms. They all do the same same thing, which is hide channels in the guide only.
    On one of them, I was actually asked 'Do you think we should launch with this in the Guide only?'. To which I replied yes, as something is better than nothing. And it is.
    Only in your opinion. Do they listen to other people's opinion?
  • stereohavenstereohaven Member Posts: 60
    edited 4 November 2017, 2:03PM
    I have been hiding all the unwanted guff in my TV guide this morning, oblivious to the fact that it only did so in the guide itself, not from the box as a whole. Lesson learned, I should have read the forum/release notes more thoroughly first.

    As someone who only ever uses the guide (and rarely because I often use search), to set recordings I too find this new functionality a waste of time and would rather you had saved it until it could "hide channels" in the truest sense. We usually navigate using the channel up and down button on the remote, so my work this morning has been pointless. 
    Visionman said:
    ...I was actually asked 'Do you think we should launch with this in the Guide only?'. To which I replied yes, as something is better than nothing. And it is.

     In your opinion. In mine, for this piece of functionality, it isn't. Perhaps YouView should start listening to a more diverse range of customer voices rather than the loudest? 
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    dreamtime said:
    Visionman said:
    Nick7 said:
    The edit channel feature just removes them from the guide, you can still select them to watch. Absolutely pointless update..!
    There are different versions of this update as there are different platforms. They all do the same same thing, which is hide channels in the guide only.
    On one of them, I was actually asked 'Do you think we should launch with this in the Guide only?'. To which I replied yes, as something is better than nothing. And it is.
    Only in your opinion. Do they listen to other people's opinion?
    Yes, everyones opinion receives equal treatment and consideration and I am only one voice amongst millions, including on this forum. Whilst YouView don't respond to every post, they do read them and feed them back.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭
    @dreamtime @stereohaven Just to be clear, are you both advocating that it would be better for YouView to do nothing at all in preference to a partial improvement?
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,545 ✭✭✭
    edited 4 November 2017, 6:09PM
    Visionman said:
    ...I was actually asked 'Do you think we should launch with this in the Guide only?'. To which I replied yes, as something is better than nothing. And it is.

     In your opinion. In mine, for this piece of functionality, it isn't. Perhaps YouView should start listening to a more diverse range of customer voices rather than the loudest? 
    Visionman is too modest.

    I think YouView will naturally give more weight to those who have invested a great deal of time and care in working with these boxes, and have a long and distinguished track record on the forum.

    And I am with him 100% on this. ‘Better to light one candle than stand cursing the darkness’ seems to be a watchword YouView have taken to heart here.

    To say nothing of the progressive laying down of firm foundations so that the full features, when they come, are neither a Big Bang nor a Big Phut.
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    edited 4 November 2017, 7:52PM
    Features that are yet to be updated with Hide Channels -

    The Mini Guide, CH up/down functionality (in other words scrolling via the RCU), Android app and the IOS app. I'm sure I've left something out there but I'm typing from memory.
    Each of the above features will probably have to be tackled one by one, which is clearly a lot of work and will probably take some time. So yes, I am glad they launched with what they had.
    I don't use it myself, but many others do.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    edited 4 November 2017, 9:08PM
    Must be time for Youview to have a new set of testers. This is going on too long... and give equal influence to more than one person (who just may be wrong here).
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    How many new thousands would you like?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,545 ✭✭✭
    dreamtime said:
    Must be time for Youview to have a new set of testers. This is going on too long... and give equal influence to more than one person (who just may be wrong here).
    What do you think having a new set of testers would achieve?

    And do I take it that you want YouView to go backwards from Edit Channels, and have no channel removal features anywhere, until they have a complete set of such facilities?

    I’m not too sure how well that dog-in-the-manger attitude would play with rather more than one YouView user  :s
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    Personal comment, if I may - I don't know why two users have set out me out to be the target of their woes. As there are many giving feedback regarding current and future releases. 
     

    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭
    Interesting use of the "Disagree" button.
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    Roy said:

    What do you think having a new set of testers would achieve?

    And do I take it that you want YouView to go backwards from Edit Channels, and have no channel removal features anywhere, until they have a complete set of such facilities?

    I’m not too sure how well that dog-in-the-manger attitude would play with rather more than one YouView user  :s
    First of all, your assumption, so therefore your comment is not correct. Secondly the hide channels existed  and was then removed, promised to return but they had no idea how to return it. Making promises based on having no idea how to do it is ridiculous, in my opinion.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    dreamtime said:
    Roy said:

    What do you think having a new set of testers would achieve?

    And do I take it that you want YouView to go backwards from Edit Channels, and have no channel removal features anywhere, until they have a complete set of such facilities?

    I’m not too sure how well that dog-in-the-manger attitude would play with rather more than one YouView user  :s
    First of all, your assumption, so therefore your comment is not correct. Secondly the hide channels existed  and was then removed, promised to return but they had no idea how to return it. Making promises based on having no idea how to do it is ridiculous, in my opinion.
    Why do you say that? That they have no idea what they are doing? 
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    dreamtime said:
    Visionman said:
    Nick7 said:
    The edit channel feature just removes them from the guide, you can still select them to watch. Absolutely pointless update..!
    There are different versions of this update as there are different platforms. They all do the same same thing, which is hide channels in the guide only.
    On one of them, I was actually asked 'Do you think we should launch with this in the Guide only?'. To which I replied yes, as something is better than nothing. And it is.
    Only in your opinion. Do they listen to other people's opinion?
    The problem wasn't Visionman's choice (which was right imho), it's that over 6 months after Next Gen, such a choice had to be made so glacial is the progress on correcting the degrades Next Gen introduced
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    @dreamtime
    dreamtime, all users of and on this forum are just users and so are not responsible for what YouView do. Only they make the decisions.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,545 ✭✭✭
    dreamtime said:
    Roy said:

    What do you think having a new set of testers would achieve?

    (Snip the assumption)
    First of all, your assumption, so therefore your comment is not correct. Secondly the hide channels existed  and was then removed, promised to return but they had no idea how to return it. Making promises based on having no idea how to do it is ridiculous, in my opinion.
    First of all, as repeated above, was a question that I see you have ducked. Do you have any answer for it?

    Re my further assumption, which you say is not correct, it is difficult to see how you square any approval for this ‘partial’ feature being out there with your view that it should be all or nothing. How do you do that, pray?

    Beyond that point in your reply, I am pleased to see that you have confirmed that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, something which I judge may well apply also to your earlier points, though this is less clear.

    But I think I am FTT, based on the above, and so must stop, unless you come back with something remarkably coherent and germane.


    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • stereohavenstereohaven Member Posts: 60
    redchiz said:
    @dreamtime @stereohaven Just to be clear, are you both advocating that it would be better for YouView to do nothing at all in preference to a partial improvement?
    I can't talk for others but in my opinion, for this piece of functionality, I say yes. We had a fully functioning "edit channels" feature prior to the "next gen" upgrade, now we are being subjected to tiresome increments and a long wait to return to something like normal functionality at time of purchase.
    Roy said:
    I think YouView will naturally give more weight to those who have invested a great deal of time and care in working with these boxes, and have a long and distinguished track record on the forum.
    That may well be the case, but it doesn't make you right or anyone else's opinion less valuable. I work for a software house, we have user groups across the country who regularly feedback on current functionality of our product and what they would like to see added or improved as they are considered "super users", the most vocal in our community.

    Without fail, on release of a new update we have other users (who normally just get on with the day to day), scratching their heads and asking "why?" because the new or "improved functionality" doesn't do what they would like or "fixes" a problem they didn't have in the first place.

    On top of that, the one thing that causes us the most support calls and account management issues is releasing anything that is only partly functional because "a bit of functionality is better than nothing".

    So all I have been saying is that for some users, a partial release just riles them, especially when they had access to that functionality previously. I am in that camp.
    Visionman said:
    Personal comment, if I may - I don't know why two users have set out me out to be the target of their woes. As there are many giving feedback regarding current and future releases. 
    You stated that releasing something is better than nothing, I merely pointed out I don't agree. If someone else had said it I would have quoted them instead. You are hardly a "target", I just disagree with your opinion on this point.
    redchiz said:
    Interesting use of the "Disagree" button.
    In your opinion. See how opinions work yet? :wink::smiley:
    Steve K said:
    ......it's that over 6 months after Next Gen, such a choice had to be made so glacial is the progress on correcting the degrades Next Gen introduced
    I agree.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,545 ✭✭✭
    edited 5 November 2017, 11:26AM
    Too much to quote, @stereohaven

    But AAMOI, what is the software product in question? And do you use Agile methods in development?

    But I think it is important to separate the OldGen versus NextGen issues from the ongoing development of NextGen.

    In many important ways, the NextGen versus OldGen issue is the Edit Channels issue writ large; there are many here, I am sure, who would say “Never mind Edit Channels, the whole of NextGen should not have been released until it was ready”.

    And if I had had my way (which as you see I didn’t get, other factors looming larger than one King Canute trying to command the tides  :) ), then NextGen would have been as optional, and as reversible, as the BBC iPlayer’s Beta version.

    I think this would have saved a lot of grief. So that far, I go with you; but we have NextGen without the option, so we either stick with it, or go elsewhere.

    And NextGen itself being incrementally released, to put it euphemistically, the recovering features in it are likewise being incrementally released.

    And if the plan ever was that they wouldn’t be, then as @Steve K says, the glacial rate of progress (which I am sure disappoints YouView nearly as much as it disappoints us) mandates the choices being made here.
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • stereohavenstereohaven Member Posts: 60
    Roy said:
    Too much to quote, @stereohaven
    I like to be thorough...  :D 
    Roy said:
    But AAMOI, what is the software product in question? And do you use Agile methods in development?
    Not one that you are likely to have heard of unless you work in a specific industry, nor a name that I am going to share anyway. We do use the Agile methodology and sometimes release 3 times a day. Still get it wrong though and I am often on the front line taking bullets, which probably shapes my view on these things!
    Roy said:
    ...then NextGen would have been as optional, and as reversible, as the BBC iPlayer’s Beta version.
    Well I have to admit I like the iPlayer beta, albeit mostly because of the HLG 4K trial which is very impressive.

    I think in summary it's pretty simple, we don't all agree and never will on this, but for me this is a feedback forum about a release and I think it's perfectly reasonable for users who may not be as vocal in the community as others to voice an opinion.

    Posting less doesn't make our opinion less valid, that is all I wanted to get across. 
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,545 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    Too much to quote, @stereohaven
    I like to be thorough...  :D 
    Roy said:
    But AAMOI, what is the software product in question? And do you use Agile methods in development?
    Not one that you are likely to have heard of unless you work in a specific industry, nor a name that I am going to share anyway. We do use the Agile methodology and sometimes release 3 times a day. Still get it wrong though and I am often on the front line taking bullets, which probably shapes my view on these things!
    Roy said:
    ...then NextGen would have been as optional, and as reversible, as the BBC iPlayer’s Beta version.
    I think in summary it's pretty simple, we don't all agree and never will on this, but for me this is a feedback forum about a release and I think it's perfectly reasonable for users who may not be as vocal in the community as others to voice an opinion.

    Posting less doesn't make our opinion less valid, that is all I wanted to get across. 
    Indeed not, a distinction I have been careful to draw, as many people have had a YouView box for quite a long time, and know it inside out, and may even have read widely on the forum without ever having posted on it very much, if at all.

    But do you not think an informed opinion should weigh heavier than an uninformed one? And it is quite difficult to gain an informed opinion about YouView matters without having at least read a deal of the information on this forum beforehand.

    Democracy has been defined as ‘counting heads irrespective of their contents’. On that basis, I don’t think we should be democratic here  :p

    But YouView will do whatever the hell they want, no matter what we do or say. And the only vote that will count with them is the one people do with their feet  ;)
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    Posting less doesn't make our opinion less valid.
    Indeed it doesn't. As all opinions are valid.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,020 ✭✭✭
    edited 5 November 2017, 9:46PM
    dreamtime said:
    Must be time for Youview to have a new set of testers. 
    Going back to this, what do you think that would achieve?
    And why do you state that YouView have no idea what they are doing?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Visionman said:

     . . And why do you state that YouView have no idea what they are doing?
    Well the alternative is they deliberately degraded so many user boxes and decided not to implement any prompt rectification, so it does seem the lesser of two evils conclusion
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,545 ✭✭✭
    Steve K said:
    Visionman said:
     . . And why do you state that YouView have no idea what they are doing?
    Well the alternative is they deliberately degraded so many user boxes and decided not to implement any prompt rectification, so it does seem the lesser of two evils conclusion
    I think the first alternative, or more accurately the true variant of it not seen through the habitual distorting lens of your take on things, is more applicable here.
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Roy said:
    Steve K said:
    Visionman said:
     . . And why do you state that YouView have no idea what they are doing?
    Well the alternative is they deliberately degraded so many user boxes and decided not to implement any prompt rectification, so it does seem the lesser of two evils conclusion
    I think the first alternative, or more accurately the true variant of it not seen through the habitual distorting lens of your take on things, is more applicable here.
    Well what is this supposed 'true variant' of it?
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    Seems like not many people on here have any idea why YouView are taking so long to restore the full hide channel facility that YouView removed in the first place, let alone all the other stuff that they deliberately removed.
  • scottscott Member, Super User Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭
    edited 6 November 2017, 5:21PM

      Although I don't agree with all the nay sayers I must admit to being disappointed at the pace of progress. We were told the move to next gen would vastly improve the rate of updates and improvements, initially this moved fairly well (even if a lot was fixing and bringing back things) but now seems to have stopped. I know this update for edit channels is fairly recent, but only a far as BT boxes go. If we look at additional features added in the last year, time has moved quickly but next gen not so.

    We were told that the action panel and discover section would be making a welcome return (and improved) and yet these have disappeared completely and even (in my opinion) staple requirements like the jump to time function have disappeared from even the faintest whisper.

    28th Feb 2017 :-

    There are a few features that are not yet available, but rest assured they will be making their debut again soon:
     



    on the recent poll was there a disappointed tag that could be clicked :(

  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,446 ✭✭✭
    edited 6 November 2017, 5:22PM
    dreamtime said:
    Seems like not many people on here have any idea why YouView are taking so long to restore the full hide channel facility that YouView removed in the first place, let alone all the other stuff that they deliberately removed.
    @dreamtime - I would imagine if anyone who posts here knew significant details to give more informative answers then they would be unable to do so as a result of an NDA.

    As such it leaves people just to speculate and hypothesise as to how difficult can such tasks be and how thus almost a year on since next gen launched could various functionality that existed before, that is arguably in demand, still not be reimplemented and in general release. One can argue that the transition to HTML5 means some aspects need a complete rewrite but one might have thought much of the logic under the hood (beyond the visual UI) could still be reused or reworked quite quickly.

    At launch it was indicated next gen would provide a better foundation for more regular and incremental improvement. That is likely true but the the overall success measured against what has been delivered to date is not as resoundingly conclusive as I expect we would all wish it to be.

    If we as users/customers are not happy though we can all vote with our feet/wallet/contracts and go elsewhere accordingly at a time that suits us :)
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