T2100 Red Button Glitch

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Comments

  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭
    edited 17 February 2018, 4:05AM
    Dreamtime, would you care to actually comment?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • @Steve Oliver 
    I would agree that there are probably very few people using scart connections nowadays. However, to rule out a dodgy lead, if it were me I'd first follow the advice given by @Visionman and try a different scart lead, especially as you are having the same issue with two different boxes.
    It can't do any harm to rule it out if nothing else.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭
    Oh give me strength.
    I think it would be helpful, @Sarah, to know where the red button DOG is coming from - can we assume it is generated by the YouView box, or does it come from elsewhere?

    If it is generated by the box, then the mechanism we have above is that the box isn’t quite removing it - accidentally leaving that little vertical bar in place under certain circumstances, as part of the screen furniture.

    The circumstances being that SCART is in use. Or possibly not that per se, but rather the 576i resolution that SCART is limited to, and which HDMI can’t get down to, as it goes no lower than 720i.

    And it stays there, with the box putting the screen together from various elements, and probably unaware this is still one of them.

    Until something removes it. Which on an LCD set, kicks in after a few seconds, but on a CRT set, doesn’t.

    All this is supposition piled on speculation, or vice versa, but an interesting question, @Sarah, is does the YouView box know it is talking to a CRT set, rather than an LCD one, and behave differently? Or do CRT and LCD sets behave differently in terms of screen refresh anyway?

    If not, some of the above rather falls down; but if it is the case, it could explain why you, @Steve, are alone in seeing this issue, being the only SCART/CRT-using member of this forum?

    If you can tell me if this CRT set from 2003(?) is 16:9 or 4:3, I can maybe get my legacy Philipe Starck CRT set down from the loft, where it sits hopefully appreciating in rarity value, and try it on one of my boxes, to see if I can reproduce the issue, and its persistence.
    Three cheers for reasoned debate, whether for or against
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭
    edited 17 February 2018, 12:08PM
    I had a look on our SCART/CRT setup and no line is left after the Red Button disappears from the screen on the BBC News channel. It is a T1000 into a Sony Trinitron telly from c.2000, 16:9.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited 17 February 2018, 12:24PM
    jonesh said:
    I had a look on our SCART/CRT setup and no line is left after the Red Button disappears from the screen on the BBC News channel. It is a T1000 into a Sony Trinitron telly from c.2000, 16:9.
    If that is the case then one can only assume the problem being experienced by @Steve Oliver is more likely being caused by the box and not the tv.
    You said earlier in the thread you couldn't try it on any other channel as it was "Difficult to try on other BBC channels as I have to find one that shows the Press Red." With the Winter Olympics taking place there are big parts of the day where the red button prompt appears on BBC1 & 2 so maybe now would be a good opportunity to test it out? 
    It's worth a shot @Steve Oliver
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭
    Robert said:
    ....one can only assume the problem being experienced by @Steve Oliver is more likely being caused by the box and not the tv.
    But Steve has tried two different boxes, with the same results, which tends to rule out a malfunction on a particular box.

    So we are either looking at a generic box issue, or a SCART cable issue (unlikely I would have thought) or a TV issue. Which, as there are CRTs and CRTs - and Trinitrons are different from other CRTs - may be indicative.

    I feel a trip to the loft, for my non-Trinitron Thompson PS TV coming on....
    Three cheers for reasoned debate, whether for or against
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭
    Robert said:
    If that is the case then one can only assume the problem being experienced by @Steve Oliver is more likely being caused by the box and not the tv.
     @Steve Oliver's YouView box and TV are different from mine @Robert. The only firm conlusion that can be drawn from my observation is that there is at least one YouView box/SCART/CRT setup that doesn't exhibit the BBC Red Button glitch described by @Steve Oliver.
  • AnaglyptaAnaglypta Member, Super User Posts: 835 ✭✭✭
    edited 17 February 2018, 6:24PM
    Not all Red Button graphics are the same. My TV, in terrestrial mode, was proudly proclaiming "Live Curling" earlier today where my YouView box tuned to the same channel was just displaying a generic "Press Red" message.

    This, coupled with the fact that pressing green no longer dismisses the message on YouView boxes, leads me to believe that the YouView box is generating "Press Red" in some non standard way.

    John.
    "Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." - George S. Patton
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭
    This BBC blog states its a BBC hosted service, unless somethings changed -
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/aboutthebbc/insidethebbc/whatwedo/redbutton/
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • AnaglyptaAnaglypta Member, Super User Posts: 835 ✭✭✭
    edited 17 February 2018, 7:12PM
    I Absolutely agree VM, but hosting of the service is not what is at issue here. The YouView box should interact with the red button service in a consistent way, and it clearly doesn't match what happens on my TV.

    John.

    EDIT: Just to be clear, what I am talking about is how different receiving equipment handles the Red Button / Connect Red Button service, which IIRC is MHEG5.
    "Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." - George S. Patton
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭
    edited 17 February 2018, 7:17PM
    Anaglypta said:
    I Absolutely agree VM, but hosting of the service is not what is at issue here. The YouView box should interact with the red button service in a consistent way, and it clearly doesn't match what happens on my TV.

    John.
    You make a good point there, John. 
    Pressing the Green button used to dismiss the RB banner instantly. But now that doesn't work as one has to press the 'Back' button instead. Only they didn't tell anyone.

    To find out about problems/issues/changes or upcoming features, internet users normally come to this forum to read about them. But I only found out about the back button change by reading the BT Community forum!
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • AnaglyptaAnaglypta Member, Super User Posts: 835 ✭✭✭
    And pressing green on my TV still dismisses the "Red Button" message!

    But any way, this is all by the by as the BBC is currently running HbbTV alongside its other services, so expect the old MHEG connected Red Button service to disappear in favour of HbbTV.

    John.
    "Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." - George S. Patton
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭
    Interesting. On YouView I thought it already had and is now presented in HTML5.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Steve OliverSteve Oliver Member Posts: 76 ✭✭
    Roy said:
    Oh give me strength.
    I think it would be helpful, @Sarah, to know where the red button DOG is coming from - can we assume it is generated by the YouView box, or does it come from elsewhere?

    If it is generated by the box, then the mechanism we have above is that the box isn’t quite removing it - accidentally leaving that little vertical bar in place under certain circumstances, as part of the screen furniture.

    The circumstances being that SCART is in use. Or possibly not that per se, but rather the 576i resolution that SCART is limited to, and which HDMI can’t get down to, as it goes no lower than 720i.

    And it stays there, with the box putting the screen together from various elements, and probably unaware this is still one of them.

    Until something removes it. Which on an LCD set, kicks in after a few seconds, but on a CRT set, doesn’t.

    All this is supposition piled on speculation, or vice versa, but an interesting question, @Sarah, is does the YouView box know it is talking to a CRT set, rather than an LCD one, and behave differently? Or do CRT and LCD sets behave differently in terms of screen refresh anyway?

    If not, some of the above rather falls down; but if it is the case, it could explain why you, @Steve, are alone in seeing this issue, being the only SCART/CRT-using member of this forum?

    If you can tell me if this CRT set from 2003(?) is 16:9 or 4:3, I can maybe get my legacy Philipe Starck CRT set down from the loft, where it sits hopefully appreciating in rarity value, and try it on one of my boxes, to see if I can reproduce the issue, and its persistence.
    Hi Roy,
    My CRT is from about 2003. It's 16:9, a 36" Toshiba that was the largest CRT you could get I think. It has built-in surround sound 5.1 !!

    There's no way this is a SCART cable issue. I have tested and the Press Red comes from the box or the TV, whichever is receiving the signal and displaying it (they can look different). In the case of Youview of course the TV is simply a monitor for the output from the Youview box. So the DTR2100 is displaying Press Red at the request of the BBC signal then not fully removing it when it times out. Two different DTR2100s using 2 SCART leads on 2 different TVs, the other TV also SCART (a Toshiba LED 25"....) both with the same problem. It's the software on the YV box.

  • Thanks for that @Steve Oliver as two posters have said above I was wrong to suggest it could possibly be the box at fault.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭
    No....  they said they weren't aware it was the box.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • zulu17zulu17 Member, Super User Posts: 1,013 ✭✭
    A question for Steve ... if you select Channel 601 directly that will also show the Press RED  . do you get the same effect  ie the line remaining  if you allow it to time out?
  • Steve OliverSteve Oliver Member Posts: 76 ✭✭
    zulu17 said:
    A question for Steve ... if you select Channel 601 directly that will also show the Press RED  . do you get the same effect  ie the line remaining  if you allow it to time out?
    I will try that as soon as I can but I'm away fot a week at the moment I'm afraid. I'm having to put up with HDMI connections right now! 😊
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭
    Robert said:
    Thanks for that @Steve Oliver as two posters have said above I was wrong to suggest it could possibly be the box at fault.
    To be exact, I said it could be a generic box fault, i.e. not an individual faulty box.
    Three cheers for reasoned debate, whether for or against
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭
    edited 18 February 2018, 10:50AM
    @Steve, what make and model is that Toshiba? I don’t think I’ve ever come across an LCD set without at least one HDMI input.

    Or are you saying that set is OK on HDMI, but the issue is persistent with SCART on it, unlike @Sarah’s findings where it persists only for a few seconds? Or what?
    Three cheers for reasoned debate, whether for or against
  • Visionman said:
    No....  they said they weren't aware it was the box.
    True......he believes it to be the software on the box. Better be precise so people can understand me better  :D
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭
    Stating the obvious, but fhe fact that the line is there on an LCD TV rules out the possibility of it being a SCART/CRT issue.

    @Roy: Is there a reason why the SCART output of a T2100 might be different from that of a T1000?
  • Steve OliverSteve Oliver Member Posts: 76 ✭✭
    Roy said:
    @Steve, what make and model is that Toshiba? I don’t think I’ve ever come across an LCD set without at least one HDMI input.

    Or are you saying that set is OK on HDMI, but the issue is persistent with SCART on it, unlike @Sarah’s findings where it persists only for a few seconds? Or what?
    Hi Roy, no, to be clear 😉 that box does have HDMI, it just also has SCART so was capable of helping with the test!
  • Steve OliverSteve Oliver Member Posts: 76 ✭✭
    jonesh said:
    Stating the obvious, but fhe fact that the line is there on an LCD TV rules out the possibility of it being a SCART/CRT issue.

    @Roy: Is there a reason why the SCART output of a T2100 might be different from that of a T1000?
    Yes, because the T1000 didn't have the same problem on the CRT via SCART.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    @Steve, what make and model is that Toshiba? I don’t think I’ve ever come across an LCD set without at least one HDMI input.

    Or are you saying that set is OK on HDMI, but the issue is persistent with SCART on it, unlike @Sarah’s findings where it persists only for a few seconds? Or what?
    Hi Roy, no, to be clear 😉 that box does have HDMI, it just also has SCART so was capable of helping with the test!
    Thanks, @Steve Oliver - I thought that might be the case.

    The question still unanswered, though, is:-

    Is the issue persistent with SCART on that set, or is it like @Sarah’s findings where it persists only for a few seconds?

    Three cheers for reasoned debate, whether for or against
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭
    edited 18 February 2018, 10:14PM
    jonesh said:
    Stating the obvious, but fhe fact that the line is there on an LCD TV rules out the possibility of it being a SCART/CRT issue.

    @Roy: Is there a reason why the SCART output of a T2100 might be different from that of a T1000?
    Not if it is all controlled by the YouView software, I wouldn’t think.

    But if it is controlled by the Humax firmware, as it very well might be, then it could certainly be different between two boxes that do not share the same hardware.

    So maybe a test on my T2000 wouldn’t prove anything, if the issue did not appear, and likewise on my T4000. I’ve got a T2100 somewhere, I think; I could dig it out and try it when I’ve got my AV up straight again.

    I’m using two packs of these bad boys to replace the coiled-up 2m and 3m cables hanging off the backs of everything at the moment; unbelievable that you can get three cables, three cable ties, a cleaning cloth, a set of labels, a widget for turning an HDMI cable through 90 degrees, and a lighting-up keyring for looking in the dark places cables go, all for just over £6, and delivered free, courtesy of Amazon Prime admittedly, in less than 12 hours.

    Damn economical, these Chinese....
    Three cheers for reasoned debate, whether for or against
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    @Roy: Is there a reason why the SCART output of a T2100 might be different from that of a T1000?
    Not if it is all controlled by the YouView software, I wouldn’t think.

    But if it is controlled by the Humax firmware, as it very well might be, then it could certainly be different between two boxes that do not share the same hardware.
    Thanks @Roy. There would seem to be no obvious reason why YouView would make a change for T2x00 boxes, to a legacy feature that works as it should on a T1000. I wonder if Toshiba just carried over the SCART connectivity from their CRT TVs to their LCDs?

    The Chinese do seem to be able to produce things economically. I wonder how much the workers are paid?
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭
    edited 19 February 2018, 8:33AM
    jonesh said:
    Roy said:
    @Roy: Is there a reason why the SCART output of a T2100 might be different from that of a T1000?
    Not if it is all controlled by the YouView software, I wouldn’t think.

    But if it is controlled by the Humax firmware, as it very well might be, then it could certainly be different between two boxes that do not share the same hardware.
    Thanks @Roy. There would seem to be no obvious reason why YouView would make a change for T2x00 boxes, to a legacy feature that works as it should on a T1000. I wonder if Toshiba just carried over the SCART connectivity from their CRT TVs to their LCDs?

    The Chinese do seem to be able to produce things economically. I wonder how much the workers are paid?
    We’re still waiting to hear what, exactly, @Steve Oliver experiences on his LCD.

    But it is insightful of you to notice that both his TVs are Toshiba, a common factor I had not given the possible significance to that I should have.

    It’s actually dead easy to leave bits of screen furniture lying around - paint 75 pixels, but accidentally only unpaint 70, say, especially when both numbers are the result of scaling some notional size onto 576i, which there is not much call for these days, and so is likely to go unnoticed by most users.

    Ideally, you would use a software technique that wasn’t prone to such error, or at least exactly the same calculation going as coming, but we don’t live in an ideal world 🌎 

    It may even be that, as the Red Button graphic has changed, the new size is being painted, but only the previous size removed. If so, it only goes to show that you can’t teach an old DOG new tricks  :s

    A T2000 is somewhat different to a T1000, and the T2100 radically so. But SCART issues on the T4000 are neatly sidestepped by omitting such a legacy connection at all  :p


    Three cheers for reasoned debate, whether for or against
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭
    edited 19 February 2018, 3:25PM
    Regarding the "Is it the box or is it the TV" debate, perhaps we should consider the possibility that it could be both of them.
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