YouView vs Freeview Play

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  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,021Member ✭✭✭
    Hi all,
    I see there have been a few questions on here and also a few statements of fact, so I'll tell you what little I know (which honestly isn't much).

    Is retail dead? No, otherwise not only retail users but ex-subscribers would screwed as well.
    Will YouView be bringing out a new box? All indications appear to be yes as its current kit is getting on a bit.
    Will the T4000 support HDR? No, not with the new standards.
    Will future YouView support HDR? Yes, under certain caveats.
    Both Netflix and Amazon have specifically chosen a format known as HDR10 and Dolby Vision, which is ideal for on demand content. The BBC (iPlayer), SKY Q and future YouView will support the BBCs and NHKs developed format known as HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) which is ideal not only for on demand but live broadcasts as well.
    Will future retail YouView get HDR? I have no idea. But if they see a market for it, that would make sense.
    Interesting times.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    edited 8 September 2018, 12:25PM
    @Visionman

    I won’t quote your post, as that would make mine a little unwieldy, but:-

    I should have said that I think new retail is dead, or if not dead, at least moribund; I suspect the sale of new T2000s is but a trickle, and nothing that would encourage anyone to bring out a new retail box. I didn’t mean to imply - and I don’t think I did imply - that YouView would stop supporting its existing ‘retail experience’ (retail non-subscriber plus ISP ex-subscriber) customers, or even any new ones it gets in either category.

    A new box available to retail is still a possibility though, if YouView adopt for retail any new box that BT is sure to have to bring out to cover the way even the T4000 is falling behind modern standards, The problem here though, is that BT rations the T4000 to those on the fastest (and coincidentally most expensive?) broadband service it provides, and if there is good logic behind that in terms of not having to disappoint (and support) customers who can’t exploit the box to the full, we might get the same thing on the retail side.

    The remaining problem is that whatever anyone designs or a customer buys, whether TV, PVR, soundbar or amp, at the moment it is out of date practically before they get it home. Fine if this can be solved with a software update, but most of the current enhancements seem to need new hardware built in to any devices that are going to support them - hence your thoughts that the T4000 won’t be upgraded for HDR, as it can’t be upgraded for HDR.

    I am surprised that more customers aren’t getting fed up with this.

    And as ever, as regards future developments, readers are reminded that those who know can’t say, and those who say can’t know, me included.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,700Member ✭✭✭
    Roy said:

    87% of broadband users are with BT or ISPs owned by BT; Sky; and Virgin, all subscription box providers. Not a lot of people with no choice but to go retail, where YouView is competing with Freeview HD Record, and a few other PVR options.

    They may well all be "subscription box providers," but that is not to say all their customers necessarily subscribe. Or even have a box at all. It would be interesting to dig deeper into those figures, anybody?
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 30Member
    Why is a new retail Youview box more complex than simply importing the Youview GUI on to the FVP 5000T/4000T box?
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 30Member
    Visionman, can you elaborate on your comment “all indications appear to be yes”.  What indications do tou have in mind other than thenobvious gap in the market?  
  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,700Member ✭✭✭
    Visionman is the YouView soothsayer.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    Jeffuk1 said:
    Why is a new retail Youview box more complex than simply importing the Youview GUI on to the FVP 5000T/4000T box?
    Define ‘simply’.

    Do you think the YouView software will automagically adapt to three tuners, or would you be happy if it stayed at two?
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,021Member ✭✭✭
    edited 8 September 2018, 5:46PM
    redchiz said:
    They may well all be "subscription box providers," but that is not to say all their customers necessarily subscribe. Or even have a box at all. It would be interesting to dig deeper into those figures, anybody?

     There are none available, but what you say is bang on and true. 
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    edited 8 September 2018, 8:40PM
    redchiz said:
    Roy said:

    87% of broadband users are with BT or ISPs owned by BT; Sky; and Virgin, all subscription box providers. Not a lot of people with no choice but to go retail, where YouView is competing with Freeview HD Record, and a few other PVR options.

    They may well all be "subscription box providers," but that is not to say all their customers necessarily subscribe. Or even have a box at all. It would be interesting to dig deeper into those figures, anybody?
    Anecdotally, I have been with Sky broadband (my choice) and am now with BT (no choice), obdurately with one or more retail YouView boxes, and never with a subscription to either.

    But I will move away from BT the microsecond I can get decent speeds from any other ISP.

    However, if I had not had a YouView box when we moved here, but wanted one, I’d have been batshit crazy to do anything but take a subscription one from BT.

    I think Virgin numbers come out much the same; only with Sky does using them as an ISP, but not subscribing to Sky, make economic sense.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,700Member ✭✭✭
    Interesting, I have always thought of Sky as a TV provider first and an ISP second, Virgin as vice-versa.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    redchiz said:
    Interesting, I have always thought of Sky as a TV provider first and an ISP second, Virgin as vice-versa.
    And indeed, this is borne out when you visit their websites. But everyone is after triple play, leveraged by what they think is their USP.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    And I should have included this link. That ‘ISP second’ nevertheless has 110% of the subscribers your ‘vice-versa’ has, and together, they come pretty close to the size of the potential YouView subscription market.

    Leaving very slim pickings for retail...
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,973Member ✭✭✭
    Does retail YouView get marketed at all these days? Don’t see a lot of adverts so I’m a bit out of the loop.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    Joe said:
    Does retail YouView get marketed at all these days? Don’t see a lot of adverts so I’m a bit out of the loop.
    Don’t know, as the box lets me fast forward through them  :p
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • scottscott Posts: 1,837Member ✭✭✭

    @visionman

    you quote -

    'Both Netflix and Amazon have specifically chosen a format known as HDR10 and Dolby Vision, which is ideal for on demand content. The BBC (iPlayer), SKY Q and future YouView will support the BBCs and NHKs developed format known as HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) which is ideal not only for on demand but live broadcasts as well.'

    So are you suggesting that a new BT YouView box definitely wont support HDR10 (and possibly Dolby Vision) standards. My TV supports all three so why wouldn't a brand new box be capable of supporting all three (Dolby Vision requires a licence fee so that could be ousted for a good reason but HDR10 doesn't and DV will revert to HDR10). I think restricting a new box to just HLG (this is the best standard to work with broadcast 4K so makes sense this will be utilised) isn't a very clever plan especially when you have two high profile services which already utilise HDR10 a lot.

  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    @scott

    I didn’t interpret Visionman’s post as saying a new model of YouView box would not support HDR, just that the existing boxes won’t.

    And regarding Dolby Vision on any future box, I’m not sure that Dolby licensing is any sort of barrier; YouView have been licensing Dolby technology since day 1, and most recently have taken Dolby Atmos on board, so I am sure they could get Dolby Vision bundled in as well, for a small on-cost.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,973Member ✭✭✭
    Dolby atmos? Where’s that? 
  • scottscott Posts: 1,837Member ✭✭✭
    edited 10 September 2018, 11:14AM

    @Roy - Not sure if we are slightly crossed wires, I interpreted Visonman's post as saying a new box would support HLG version HDR but not HDR10 or Dolby Vision. That was what I wanted clarifying. He is absolutely correct that existing boxes wont support HDR in any guise but new hardware will. 

    I am also certain BT COULD get DV for a small cost but would they??

    I know they have Dolby Atmos but does that work the same in licencing (I admit I don't know I just see lots of talk about licence cost for DV but not seen any for Atmos but maybe it is just not talked about the same - it is only used for a few 4k broadcasts so must be very slight use, I appreciate being able to have it but lucky if I watch a couple of things a month with it through BT, although it is gaining momentum with Netflix and recently Amazon utilizing it and I watch quite a few more things on their with it but of course that means switching back to my TV app :) ).

  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,973Member ✭✭✭
    edited 10 September 2018, 11:19AM
    So Dolby Atmos for BT users? I presume that’s only on the T4000 ultra HD box?

    Makes it a bit of a joke that they’ve not enabled the standard Netflix surround sound for the rest of the YouView users. More so that YouView search results for Netflix indicate  that SS is available for use. 

    Dolby licensing aside - Whats the technical requirement for HDR then? Is HDMI 2.0 not enough on it’s own?


  • scottscott Posts: 1,837Member ✭✭✭

    @Joe - Yes it is only on the 4k broadcasts and they have been doing it since 31 January 2017 so not a new thing.

    http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/58167/~/dolby-atmos-with-bt-sport-4k-uhd-channel

  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    edited 10 September 2018, 12:45PM
    Joe said:
    So Dolby Atmos for BT users? I presume that’s only on the T4000 ultra HD box?

    Makes it a bit of a joke that they’ve not enabled the standard Netflix surround sound for the rest of the YouView users. More so that YouView search results for Netflix indicate  that SS is available for use. 

    Dolby licensing aside - What’s the technical requirement for HDR then? Is HDMI 2.0 not enough on its own?



     Dynamic HDR needs HDMI 2.1
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    edited 10 September 2018, 12:43PM
    @scott

    Never forget that if @Visionman actually knew anything about new YouView boxes, he would be under an NDA preventing him from saying anything.

    So anything that he says (or for that matter, that I say) about YouView futurology is only conjecture, however well-informed we may or may not be about where the industry in general is going.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,973Member ✭✭✭
    edited 10 September 2018, 3:04PM
    Looking at the Apple TV 4K specs, it appears they only use hdmi 2.0 and still manage to have Dolby vision HDR. Also the new Ultra blu-ray player from sony is also only with HDMI 2.0, and yet prides itself on being one of the first players to provide Dolby Vision HDR, and the new dynamic HDR10+

    Maybe the T4000 could do the hdr formats? 
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,973Member ✭✭✭
    I suspect that until BT get HDR working on their live broadcasts, they may not wish to see it implemented on Netflix and Amazon, as it may make their own ultra HD service appear less vibrant.
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,021Member ✭✭✭
    @scott ;
    Sorry for any crossed wires. So just to clarify, I have no idea if any new box will also support HDR10 and Dolby Vision. 
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    edited 10 September 2018, 9:39PM
    Joe said:
    Looking at the Apple TV 4K specs, it appears they only use hdmi 2.0 and still manage to have Dolby vision HDR. Also the new Ultra blu-ray player from sony is also only with HDMI 2.0, and yet prides itself on being one of the first players to provide Dolby Vision HDR, and the new dynamic HDR10+

    Maybe the T4000 could do the hdr formats? 
    According to this article, HDR requires at least HDMI 2.0a, and while you might get dynamic HDR, you won’t get Dynamic HDR.

    Confused? I sure as hell am. But HDR, any HDR, requires the device to already have the chips, or be capable of a firmware update if the logic can live there instead of on a chip, and to have the software to support HDR.

    Does the T4000 have the software? Nope. Has it got, in principle or in practice, the hardware or firmware capability? Pass.  If it can be done in firmware, will it be upgraded, in firmware and software, to do the job? Pass.

    We do know the T4000 can support the necessary 10 bits, at least, but beyond that, who knows?

    Oh, and re the Apple and Sony products referenced, then from the horses’ mouth, the Apple TV has HDMI 2.0a, and I can’t find anything from Sony to say which version of HDMI is implemented on the X700, not in their advertising, nor even in the product’s user manual.

    But maybe you will have better luck than me there?
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,973Member ✭✭✭
    Regarding the Sony here’s a quote taken from the article I linked to in a previous post:

    “Here you’ll find two HDMI outputs: one is 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 support, the other is HDMI 1.4 for those with older soundbars and receivers.
    Read more at https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/sony-ubp-x700#ZGOEKBJ1leJDV7Bq.99

    I tried to find out about the other Dolby Vision capable ultra HD player by Panasonic, the UB820, but strangely they don’t seem to want to advertise the specs of the hdmi output. This coupled with Sony review and specs leads me to the conclusion that the Panasonic is also using hdmi 2.0. Otherwise I’m sure they would be using the new spec as a selling point.
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,973Member ✭✭✭
    Regarding HDMI ports, I just just found this review with tech details on the new Panasonic UB820:

    “The Panasonic DP-UB820 has a nice selection on the back panel of audio/video outputs including a pair of HDMI ports (one HDMI 2.0a for video) one for video/audio and the other for audio only output.”

    https://hdguru.com/review-panasonic-dp-ub820-ultra-hd-blu-ray-player-offers-premium-performance/

    Seems like you can do full fat HDR (Dolby vision, HDR10+) with hdmi 2.0a spec 

  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,451Member ✭✭✭
    edited 11 September 2018, 4:50PM
    @Joe

    You can indeed, which is a good thing, since we have HDR now, but I haven’t seen an HDMI 2.1 device yet, let alone obtained one.

    What we are debating, and what a good bit of searching on the net hasn’t thrown up yet, is whether you can have HDR with plain old HDMI 2.0, and/or whether the assertions in the Trusted Reviews quote about the X700 having one (plain old) HDMI 2.0 port and one HDMI 1.4 port are strictly accurate.

    I have now asked these questions on the Sony forum.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,973Member ✭✭✭
    edited 11 September 2018, 7:41PM
    Roy said:

    What we are debating, and what a good bit of searching on the net hasn’t thrown up yet, is whether you can have HDR with plain old HDMI 2.0, and/or whether the assertions in the Trusted Reviews quote about the X700 having one (plain old) HDMI 2.0 port and one HDMI 1.4 port are strictly accurate.
    Whilst perhaps we can't verify 100% the technical specs of the Ultra hd players based on  two reviews. What we can 100% confirm is that the Apple TV 4k has HDMI 2.0a and can do Dolby Vision.
    From the little I've read, i get the impression that HDMI 2.1 is future proofing for 8k and higher from rates at 120khz. It increasingly seems that HDMI 2 can indeed squeeze out the new HDR formats in all their glory.
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