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  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,530Member ✭✭✭
    edited 9 October 2018, 6:45AM
    Be aware that this article is paywalled - or at least, you have to register to read it.  :'(

    There are other references to this news on the interweb, but they all go back to this Telegraph article.

    While this plan is only for EE, a straw in the wind is “BT’s consumer chief Marc Allera ....... has questioned the wisdom of BT’s investment in its own set-top boxes in competition with Apple, Amazon and Sky.”

    Nobody, though, has mentioned either ‘FreeView’, or ‘PVR’, or ‘Pause and rewind live TV’, all major differentiators between YouView and Apple TV.

    Our Apple TV boxes have fallen into disuse at home, as there is little or nothing they can do that can’t be done more easily on our YouView box or the TV itself, there are a lot of things they can’t do, and even though the newer Apple TV boxes can do a little more, they are crazy expensive to buy, and everything costs extra afterwards.

    It will be interesting to see how all this goes.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,081Member ✭✭✭
    edited 9 October 2018, 7:48AM
    Ah yes, the Telegraph. Who along with the Guardian, are both heavily sponsored by SKY.

    According to alleged industry sources...
    https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/10/bt-and-ee-seeking-uk-broadband-pay-tv-deal-with-apple.html 
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,081Member ✭✭✭
    edited 9 October 2018, 8:04AM
    Its been a while since one of the established had a pop at YouView. But after all this time still staying true to type. Its only the third largest platform in the UK.
  • Perhaps this news, whether it proves to be true or false, does give some credence to my post in another thread about about a future BT TV service based upon a Amazon TV Stick.

    Bundling an existing TV box/stick is not a new business model, and is being deployed by some very big telecoms around the world, in fact, it's a model that is getting more popular.

    Technology is changing so FAST, that building a special piece of hardware to bundle with your ISP/TV service is simply becoming financially unviable.

    Maybe this news will come to nothing, however, I think it does show the future, and that it really is a case of when, not if...

    ...so maybe my comments in another tread are valid, and not, as another vocal form member seem to think "....you've gone one step further by declaring sticks are going to kill traditional TV platforms period.... Personally I don't think so..."
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,081Member ✭✭✭
    On this forum we don't trash anothers comments to validate our own. We just choose to disagree with them, if needed.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,530Member ✭✭✭
    Visionman said:
    Ah yes, the Telegraph. Who along with the Guardian, are both heavily sponsored by SKY.

    According to alleged industry sources...
    https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/10/bt-and-ee-seeking-uk-broadband-pay-tv-deal-with-apple.html 
    Proof of your first assertion, please.

    And the link you quote is just rehashing the Telegraph item, albeit with some further musings that none of the other vulture rebroadcasters could be bothered to dignify their ‘borrowings’ with.....
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,530Member ✭✭✭
    Perhaps this news, whether it proves to be true or false, does give some credence to my post in another thread about about a future BT TV service based upon an Amazon TV Stick.

    R: Even if it turns out to be untrue?

    Bundling an existing TV box/stick is not a new business model, and is being deployed by some very big telecoms around the world, in fact, it's a model that is getting more popular.

    R: Citations, please.

    Technology is changing so FAST, that building a special piece of hardware to bundle with your ISP/TV service is simply becoming financially unviable.

    R: But this changing technology is bundled in huge ranges of TV sets from a swathe of manufacturers, and changing every year; how come you don’t think that is unviable as well?

    Maybe this news will come to nothing, however, I think it does show the future, and that it really is a case of when, not if...

    R: You make the usual error, which YouView, and Amazon with their new PVR do not, of forgetting that sticks provide neither FreeView nor recording capabilities, and that we are a very long way from needing neither going forward.

    ...so maybe my comments in another tread are valid, and not, as another vocal form member seem to think "....you've gone one step further by declaring sticks are going to kill traditional TV platforms period.... Personally I don't think so..."

    R: That was ‘another thread’. This post is the ‘tread’, :s where you are treading on Visionman’s toes. Take care; he may respond in kind, and he has cleated boots  :s

    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • Roy said:
    Perhaps this news, whether it proves to be true or false, does give some credence to my post in another thread about about a future BT TV service based upon an Amazon TV Stick.

    R: Even if it turns out to be untrue?

    Not sure what your point is... my programming background tends to make my say, true/false...

    Bundling an existing TV box/stick is not a new business model, and is being deployed by some very big telecoms around the world, in fact, it's a model that is getting more popular.

    R: Citations, please.

    I can, but here is a sample list, just google it..

    Verizon in the US
    DirecTV in the US
    Canal+ in France
    Salt in Switzerland. 

    Technology is changing so FAST, that building a special piece of hardware to bundle with your ISP/TV service is simply becoming financially unviable.

    R: But this changing technology is bundled in huge ranges of TV sets from a swathe of manufacturers, and changing every year; how come you don’t think that is unviable as well?

    Yes it is... and that is why TV sticks are not disappearing... their cheap, and tend to get up dated yearly...

    Maybe this news will come to nothing, however, I think it does show the future, and that it really is a case of when, not if...

    R: You make the usual error, which YouView, and Amazon with their new PVR do not, of forgetting that sticks provide neither FreeView nor recording capabilities, and that we are a very long way from needing neither going forward.

    It's not an error, I just don't mentioned it here, and have explained in detail what I think will happen... I expect all Freeview channels to become available in HD via ISP, so instead of an aerial/ISP system, it will be purely ISP.

    ...so maybe my comments in another tread are valid, and not, as another vocal form member seem to think "....you've gone one step further by declaring sticks are going to kill traditional TV platforms period.... Personally I don't think so..."

    R: That was ‘another thread’. This post is the ‘tread’, :s where you are treading on Visionman’s toes. Take care; he may respond in kind, and he has cleated boots  :s

    Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistake, as you know Roy, I am dyslexic, and even through I re-read my posts over and over again, I do make mistakes.
     
    I'm not here to criticise anyone, however, it does feel like when someone new joins the forum, with a different opinion to some of the long term members they are quickly shut down... with the long term member having to have the last post, ... almost as through they are closing the thread, along with the opinions of the new member.


  • sevansevan Posts: 29Member
    Visionman said:
    On this forum we don't trash anothers comments to validate our own. We just choose to disagree with them, if needed.

    Oh yes you do!
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,978Member ✭✭✭
    The BBC are already openly preparing for the day when all live tv will be delivered over Internet. That could change the dynamic with perhaps hardware like the Apple TV/fire stick becoming the preferred way to access tv.
    Check out this video with a bbc spokesman. It gives a big insight into where it’s all heading:

    https://youtu.be/5AR2v-NDN0g

  • TomWTomW Posts: 486Member
    edited 13 October 2018, 3:52PM
    Joe said:
    The BBC are already openly preparing for the day when all live tv will be delivered over Internet. That could change the dynamic with perhaps hardware like the Apple TV/fire stick becoming the preferred way to access tv.
    Check out this video with a bbc spokesman. It gives a big insight into where it’s all heading:

    https://youtu.be/5AR2v-NDN0g

    I imagine the commercial broadcasters must also be making moves in this direction. Not least because TV delivered over IP without recording functionality but with comprehensive catch-up / on-demand would remove the ability PVR users currently have to skip adverts.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,530Member ✭✭✭
    edited 13 October 2018, 6:31PM
    TomW said:
    Joe said:
    The BBC are already openly preparing for the day when all live tv will be delivered over Internet. That could change the dynamic with perhaps hardware like the Apple TV/fire stick becoming the preferred way to access tv.
    Check out this video with a bbc spokesman. It gives a big insight into where it’s all heading:

    https://youtu.be/5AR2v-NDN0g

    I imagine the commercial broadcasters must also be making moves in this direction. Not least because TV delivered over IP without recording functionality but with comprehensive catch-up / on-demand would remove the ability PVR users currently have to skip adverts.
    I didn’t take away the same message as @Joe from that video; we can already get everything the BBC delivers - every programme, every channel, in real time or watch from start - from the iPlayer anyway, quite apart from all the catchup we can get.

    But it’s a bit of a palaver compared with just banging on an OTA channel on our TV, even when it works smoothly and doesn’t buffer and/or halt, which is not always the case.

    I didn’t hear or see on that video any plan to discontinue OTA. Though if you did, @Joe, can you give me the mm:ss to jump to (remember back in the good old days when YouView boxes did that?) 

    But YouView boxes could perfectly well be set up, by YouView, to record IP transmissions; it’s just that they aren’t, for whatever reason.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,081Member ✭✭✭
    What, Roy? What do you mean by 'IP transmissions'?
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,530Member ✭✭✭
    edited 13 October 2018, 8:03PM
    Visionman said:
    What, Roy? What do you mean by 'IP transmissions'?
    It’s when something arrives at your YouView box over the internet, instead of over an aerial.

    Edit: @TomW reminds me that BT subscription channel transmissions arrive over IP, and already can be recorded.

    So I guess I need to refer to IP transmissions other than these.... but the fact that these already can be recorded perhaps bears out how little YouView would need to do, technically, to record scheduled programmes from IP rather than OTA, and to record catchup programming on request. 


    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • TomWTomW Posts: 486Member
    edited 14 October 2018, 11:52AM
    Roy said:
    TomW said:
    Joe said:
    The BBC are already openly preparing for the day when all live tv will be delivered over Internet. That could change the dynamic with perhaps hardware like the Apple TV/fire stick becoming the preferred way to access tv.
    Check out this video with a bbc spokesman. It gives a big insight into where it’s all heading:

    https://youtu.be/5AR2v-NDN0g

    I imagine the commercial broadcasters must also be making moves in this direction. Not least because TV delivered over IP without recording functionality but with comprehensive catch-up / on-demand would remove the ability PVR users currently have to skip adverts.
    I didn’t take away the same message as @Joe from that video; we can already get everything the BBC delivers - every programme, every channel, in real time or watch from start - from the iPlayer anyway, quite apart from all the catchup we can get.

    But it’s a bit of a palaver compared with just banging on an OTA channel on our TV, even when it works smoothly and doesn’t buffer and/or halt, which is not always the case.

    I didn’t hear or see on that video any plan to discontinue OTA. Though if you did, @Joe, can you give me the mm:ss to jump to (remember back in the good old days when YouView boxes did that?) 

    But YouView boxes could perfectly well be set up, by YouView, to record IP transmissions; it’s just that they aren’t, for whatever reason.

    YouView boxes do record IP transmissions e.g., BT subscription channels. But I get what you’re saying. None of the major terrestrial broadcasters offer their channels over IP in the YouView epg........yet.

    I think a wholesale switch from broadcast to IP will happen eventually though. Firstly because TV broadcasts take up a huge chunk of very limited radio spectrum that could otherwise be used to service the increasing demand for mobile data. And secondly because new technologies such as 4K and HDR will be difficult if not impossible to deploy using terrestrial broadcast. Next generation broadband will be required in order for it to become a reality, of course, but it will happen. Sky Q over IP will be a taste of things to come.

    I think it’s interesting that PVR functionality using an expensive set top box is at present sold as the premium offering by BT and Sky when the same functionality could just as easily be offered over IP via the cloud using a cheap as chips stick. For example Ican buy a NowTV Sky Sports day pass to watch a football match for £7 using a £15 NowTV box or the app built into my TV but I have to watch the match live and I can’t pause or rewind. If I want or need the ability to record the match so I can watch it at a time of my choosing I have to pay a vastly increased price and I am required to take out an 12 month subscription and pay for an expensive set top box (albeit often  a hidden cost recouped via subscription fees). To me this is an example of where providers are purposely hobbling the budget IP offerings so as not to cannibalise sales of their premium set top boxes even though almost all of the functionality of the latter could be offered by the former and without the need for an expensive set top box.


  • David8David8 Posts: 644Member ✭✭
    TomW said:
    Roy said:
    TomW said:
    Joe said:
    The BBC are already openly preparing for the day when all live tv will be delivered over Internet. That could change the dynamic with perhaps hardware like the Apple TV/fire stick becoming the preferred way to access tv.
    Check out this video with a bbc spokesman. It gives a big insight into where it’s all heading:

    https://youtu.be/5AR2v-NDN0g

    I imagine the commercial broadcasters must also be making moves in this direction. Not least because TV delivered over IP without recording functionality but with comprehensive catch-up / on-demand would remove the ability PVR users currently have to skip adverts.
    I didn’t take away the same message as @Joe from that video; we can already get everything the BBC delivers - every programme, every channel, in real time or watch from start - from the iPlayer anyway, quite apart from all the catchup we can get.

    But it’s a bit of a palaver compared with just banging on an OTA channel on our TV, even when it works smoothly and doesn’t buffer and/or halt, which is not always the case.

    I didn’t hear or see on that video any plan to discontinue OTA. Though if you did, @Joe, can you give me the mm:ss to jump to (remember back in the good old days when YouView boxes did that?) 

    But YouView boxes could perfectly well be set up, by YouView, to record IP transmissions; it’s just that they aren’t, for whatever reason.

    YouView boxes do record IP transmissions e.g., BT subscription channels. But I get what saying. None of the major terrestrial broadcasters offer their channels over IP in the YouView epg........yet.

    I think a wholesale switch from broadcast to IP will happen eventually though. Firstly because TV broadcasts take up a huge chunk of very limited radio spectrum that could otherwise be used to service the increasing demand for mobile data. And secondly because new technologies such as 4K and HDR will be difficult if not impossible to deploy using terrestrial broadcast. Next generation broadband will be required in order for it to become a reality, of course, but it will happen. Sky Q over IP will be a taste of things to come.

    I think it’s interesting that PVR functionality using an expensive set top box is at present sold as the premium offering by BT and Sky when the same functionality could just as easily be offered over IP via the cloud using a cheap as chips stick. For example Ican buy a NowTV Sky Sports day pass to watch a football match for £7 using a £15 NowTV box or the app built into my TV but I have to watch the match live and I can’t pause or rewind. If I want or need the ability to record the match so I can watch it at a time of my choosing I have to pay a vastly increased price and I am required to take out an 12 month subscription and pay for an expensive set top box (albeit often  a hidden cost recouped via subscription fees). To me this is an example of where providers are purposely hobbling the budget IP offerings so as not to cannibalise sales of their premium set top boxes even though almost all of the functionality of the latter could be offered by the former and without the need for an expensive set top box.


    Sky are discontinuing Sky Fibre Unlimited for new customers and only offering Fibre Max. Existing Sky Fibre Unlimited subscribers are being offered a free upgrade to Sky Fibre Max.


  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,530Member ✭✭✭
    edited 13 October 2018, 8:21PM
    I think that stopping TV broadcasting OTA in favour of IP would be a fiasco like stopping FM in favour of DAB. That thankfully didn’t happen for two reasons; firstly, the installed base of non-DAB devices (especially in cars, though that is not a consideration that applies to TV), and second, the execrable quality of most DAB transmissions, and their limited range (the analogue of which for IP is the continued prevalence of not-spot areas where you can’t get decent broadband).

    But perhaps we will just be ceding broadcast channels to 5G so that 5G can be used to bring those channels over broadband to those people who could previously only get those broadcast channels which were being ceded?  :p
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,530Member ✭✭✭
    edited 13 October 2018, 8:27PM

    @David8 said:

    Sky are discontinuing Sky Fibre Unlimited for new customers and only offering Fibre Max. Existing Sky Fibre Unlimited subscribers are being offered a free upgrade to Sky Fibre Max.

    R: What’s the difference?

    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,081Member ✭✭✭
    edited 13 October 2018, 8:54PM
    TomW is correct, you know. Fibre is the future for many things.

    BBC1 & 2 HD, ITV HD and CH4 and 5s HD channels have already been successfully broadcast live over IP. And recordable too. It was an experiment which lasted for a long while and was very reliable. Then they just suddenly.... stopped.

    Point of note - you can't compared DAB radios with IPTV as most TVs for sale today are already IP capable. And in the future all. So there would no dumping of millions of perfectly serviceable analog radios along the way, which is what the DAB issue was about. That was a stupid decision which was thankfully reversed. But this one won't be.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,530Member ✭✭✭
    edited 14 October 2018, 6:52AM
    Visionman said:

    Point of note - you can't compare DAB radios with IPTV as most TVs for sale today are already IP capable. And in the future all. So there would no dumping of millions of perfectly serviceable analog radios along the way, which is what the DAB issue was about. That was a stupid decision which was thankfully reversed. But this one won't be.
    It isn’t valid to compare TVs for sale today here. For a fair comparison with the DAB situation, you have to look at the equivalent dumping of millions of perfectly serviceable non-smart TVs that would happen if TV broadcast went IP.

    Or possibly another exercise like the giving out of digital zapper boxes that occurred with the analogue TV switch-off, except these would have to be IP boxes, and some people would have to be given broadband also, an ongoing cost that was not a consideration in the digital switch-off.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,732Member ✭✭✭
    Interesting discussion. And to bring it back around I think the original thesis is predicated on the US model of television, where cable is king. Where OTA still dominates, as here, the likelihood of dongly services based on the internet alongside broadcast services generally are as far away as mass connection to FTTP which, given the dead hand of Openreach in this, is a very long way indeed.
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,978Member ✭✭✭
    @Roy I think you’re really right about 5g. It sounds like a powerful way of delivering next Gen ultra HD broadcasts to places where fibre isn’t available. It’s also given brief mention in the linked video. 
    @ 6m.35secs there’s mention of the BBC “stating that the streaming of all types of content will be the norm in the near future”

    Theres certainly no mention of a switch off of OTA broadcast in the video, but it’s apparent in the video that the BBC are working to make IP broadcast as good if not better then OTA. Given that SKY are going to move to an IP service, it doesn’t seem too far fetched given the BBC’s pioneering work in this area that we may see the same eventually for freeview. Though it would be problematic for many rural areas as things stand.
     Having said that I have FTTP, installed for free in a rural area, so things are gradually changing.



  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,978Member ✭✭✭
    I think it’s also interesting that the BBC are looking into multicasting in the network and a possible hybrid network using unicasting and multicasting, which presumably would allow efficient broadcast quality using less bandwidth, but also the advantage of being able to restart the program like we have now in iplayer.
    Sounds to me like they’re building a new network for broadcast 
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,081Member ✭✭✭
    edited 15 October 2018, 11:27AM
    Interesting discussion. For which I would like to I'd like to point out a point of note -

    Full FTTP is never going to happen in the UK.
    Just look at Virgin, NTL and Telewest. They went bust a number of times trying to cable up the UK and even took BT to court about it.
    Can everyone get cable? No. Can everyone get satellite? No. Can everyone get Freeview? Also no. But over 95% of the UK does have access to fast fibre, which isn't bad.

    2.5Mbps is required to access unicast IP on YouView, 5.5 for Multicast and 10 for HD.

    The BBC and its commercial partners already use uni and multi broadcasting on a raft of different IP platforms, including YouView, with more to come. This change is going to happen. The only question is when.
  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,732Member ✭✭✭
    Hmm, what would happen if the existing, creaking FTTC network suddenly had to cope with 10-20x the traffic? It's bad enough when Sky show a highly rated football match, the servers can barely cope then with pixellation and drop-outs galore, imagine Bodyguard on multicast?
  • JoeJoe Posts: 1,978Member ✭✭✭
    redchiz said:
    Hmm, what would happen if the existing, creaking FTTC network suddenly had to cope with 10-20x the traffic? It's bad enough when Sky show a highly rated football match, the servers can barely cope then with pixellation and drop-outs galore, imagine Bodyguard on multicast?
    I think the main benifit of mutlticast is that it’s only one stream that everybody tunes into, similar to traditional tv from the ariel. Unicast however requires the signal to be sent out individually to each tv that requests it, so that could be millions of individual IP streams. If you want to save bandwidth then multicast is the way to go.

    The cool features of BBC restart (the ability to pause and rewind/fast forward an iP stream) as we can now, are only possible using unicast though. I imagine that’s why the BBC are looking into the possibility of a hybrid system using both multicast and unicast.
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