adaptive frame rate output

Will YouView boxes eventually feature adaptive frame rate output - as I understand it we are currently locked at 50hz causing judder issues with streaming services such as Netflix and it's particularly problematic with Amazon Prime which features quite a lot of content at various frame rates including some standard definition NTSC (american tv shows in sd for example) which is already displaying pulldown before being forced out at 50hz which then causes a second layer of frame dropping resulting in a very jerky picture. I've been reading about other streaming hardware that does feature adaptive frame rate that detects the native framerate of any video feed and adjusts the output accordingly - this is really the ultimate for streaming and it would be great if YouView could get on board with something like this.

Comments

  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,334Member ✭✭✭
    The majority of American NTSC transmissions ceased on the 1st Jan 2010.
    But to answer your question the answer is 'no' YouView won't, sorry.
    So if you want 60hz Netflix / Amazon with a compatible adaptive 60hz TV, you'll have to use another device. But in the UK there aren't many.
  • JoeJoe Posts: 2,000Member ✭✭✭
    edited 29 October 2018, 7:08PM
    I don’t think anyone here can really answer that question on behalf of Youview.
    Feedback has been passed onto Youview about this issue, and they’re aware of it.  Beyond that we don’t know what YouView’s plans are for variable frame rates.

     I think for the long term sustainability of the platform, and to promote Youview as a premier destination for streaming services, it would be sensible to invest in developing a feature to accommodate this.

     It’s a feature that’s becoming much more common on other platforms now. In fact I’m considering buying a device that can do adaptive frame rates. 
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,334Member ✭✭✭
    edited 30 October 2018, 1:01AM
    Joe>
    "It’s a feature that’s becoming much more common on other platforms now."

    On which other recordable boxes is this feature available Joe?
  • JoeJoe Posts: 2,000Member ✭✭✭
    Not recordable PvRs that I know of, but lots of streaming devices and Blu-Ray players. I’m considering buying a new Blu-ray player, and am looking at a Sony player which does the changing frame rate thing on streaming content.





  • RoyRoy Posts: 15,055Member ✭✭✭
    edited 30 October 2018, 2:18PM
    Joe said:
    Not recordable PvRs that I know of, but lots of streaming devices and Blu-Ray players. I’m considering buying a new Blu-ray player, and am looking at a Sony player which does the changing frame rate thing on streaming content.
    Yes, but have you got a TV that will faithfully support AFR?
    Does HDMI stand for Hardly Dare Mention It?
  • JoeJoe Posts: 2,000Member ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    Joe said:
    Not recordable PvRs that I know of, but lots of streaming devices and Blu-Ray players. I’m considering buying a new Blu-ray player, and am looking at a Sony player which does the changing frame rate thing on streaming content.
    Yes, but have you got a TV that will faithfully support AFR?
    My tv (however it may apply It), seems to me to do a very good job - From standard U.K. tv at 50fps to American 60fps, and to 24fps 

    What it doesn’t do well is YouView’s workaround for Netflix’s mostly 60hz content, which has the annoying repetitive judder on panning shots.

    I have a nowtv box with new Netflix app, which seems to play content without these issues. Though I haven’t used it extensively yet. I presume it’s stuck at 60hz, so maybe UK material may be worse on that device? 
  • RoyRoy Posts: 15,055Member ✭✭✭
    Joe said:
    Roy said:
    Joe said:
    Not recordable PvRs that I know of, but lots of streaming devices and Blu-Ray players. I’m considering buying a new Blu-ray player, and am looking at a Sony player which does the changing frame rate thing on streaming content.
    Yes, but have you got a TV that will faithfully support AFR?
    My tv (however it may apply It), seems to me to do a very good job - From standard U.K. tv at 50fps to American 60fps, and to 24fps 

    What it doesn’t do well is YouView’s workaround for Netflix’s mostly 60hz content, which has the annoying repetitive judder on panning shots.

    I have a nowtv box with new Netflix app, which seems to play content without these issues. Though I haven’t used it extensively yet. I presume it’s stuck at 60hz, so maybe UK material may be worse on that device? 
    What make and model of TV is it, pray, @Joe?
    Does HDMI stand for Hardly Dare Mention It?
  • JoeJoe Posts: 2,000Member ✭✭✭
    @Roy it’s an old Panasonic GT50 42” plasma 
  • alal Posts: 1,293Member ✭✭
    I'm sensing some confusion between Adaptive Frame Rate and Auto Frame Rate (or maybe it's just me). All I want/need is Auto on the Youview box (rather than the current Fixed). My tv (Panny Plasma) switches 50/60/24 but not seamlessly as, I assume, Adaptive would.
  • JoeJoe Posts: 2,000Member ✭✭✭
    al said:
    I'm sensing some confusion between Adaptive Frame Rate and Auto Frame Rate (or maybe it's just me). All I want/need is Auto on the Youview box (rather than the current Fixed). My tv (Panny Plasma) switches 50/60/24 but not seamlessly as, I assume, Adaptive would.
    I hadn’t realised there was adaptive frame rate. Apple TV seems to use auto frame rate, which can cause a blank screen for a second as the tv switches to the new refresh rate. Does adaptive smooth out this transition? 
  • RoyRoy Posts: 15,055Member ✭✭✭
    Visionman said:
    The majority of American NTSC transmissions ceased on the 1st Jan 2010.
    But to answer your question the answer is 'no' YouView won't, sorry.
    So if you want 60hz Netflix / Amazon with a compatible adaptive 60hz TV, you'll have to use another device. But in the UK there aren't many.
    As you said before: ‘Ahhh... the mysteries of the internet...’

    So presumably, your ex cathedra pronouncement about what YouView will and won’t do in this area is based on publicly available information, as you would surely not break an NDA, or even just make it up?

    So can you please share a link with us, as you did before about Amazon Prime on BT TV 4K boxes? Even if what you link to has doubts cast on its reliability, as happened there?
    Does HDMI stand for Hardly Dare Mention It?
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,334Member ✭✭✭
    In short, no. Because what I said is reliable. Its only your choice if you believe it or not.
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,334Member ✭✭✭
    If I'm reading the likes and dislikes on here correctly, are said users saying that they believe there will be a new adaptive framerate box to replace the T2000? Because the current ones don't and won't do it.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 15,055Member ✭✭✭
    edited 1 November 2018, 11:52AM
    Visionman said:
    If I'm reading the likes and dislikes on here correctly, are said users saying that they believe there will be a new adaptive framerate box to replace the T2000? Because the current ones don't and won't do it.
    I think you should read them not as having any special opinion about AFR, but rather as deprecating the statement of speculation as fact, fact you decline to back up with the evidence that would exist if it were fact, or even with your reasoning if it were still speculation, but very well-informed speculation.

    I am not worried about believing it or not; you may well be right, but I don’t believe that you know you are right.

    But there are those in the Community - including me - who give much weight to what you say, and often very well-deserved weight; I would suggest you have a duty to us all to distinguish known fact from mere supposition.
    Does HDMI stand for Hardly Dare Mention It?
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,334Member ✭✭✭
    Roy>
    " I would suggest you have a duty to us all to distinguish known fact from mere supposition."

    I agree and will scale back what I say about future changes and hardware.
    The only known is that they are coming.
  • If by adaptive frame rate you are referring to the TV adapting to an input signal with a frame rate that varies within same signal this usually only applies to gaming where a game’s frame rate can vary depending upon GPU intensity. Technologies such as Nvidia’s G-SYNC provide this capability with the XBO and PS4 to prevent screen tearing artifacts. 

    Fixed rate but adaptive switching can be can be done by most TVs these days. The TV switches to 24/50/60 (or a multiple of) fps to match the incoming fixed signal. Usually there is a momentary blank as the HDMI system resyncs. There isn’t usually a blank for frame rate changes within the TVs own apps (my LG OLED and Netflix for example doesn’t blank with frame rate changes). 

    The sticking block to date has been that set top streaming boxes have had fixed HDMI outputs. This is now changing. Apple TV 4K was the first. Now Fire TV and Roku support it. 

    Sky Q now has a “reduce judder” setting which is just frame rate adjustment for internal apps - notably Netflix now it has launched.

    it seems likely Youview will support it for Netflix and Amazon if the hardware is capable. 
  • Well having dug a little deeper with Sky Q all the reduce judder setting does is change the HDMI output to 60fps. This will obviously make NTSC sources judder free. For 24P sources it seems to make no difference. PAL 50 doesn’t judder for me but others I’ve read say it does.

    Hopefully they can do proper frame rate adapting on a per source basis. 

    The downside of switching to 24P is that the overlay UI gets very jerky because of the low frame rate. 

    My LG TV gets around this by sticking at 120Hz for 24P and 60P internal sources and doing a 5:1 or 2:1 pull down for each. So you get no judder and the UI remains smooth. Hence I usually use the TV for Netflix and Amazon rather than a set top box. 
  • http://www.aftvnews.com/explanation-of-the-new-frame-rate-matching-feature-on-the-amazon-fire-tv/

    Amazon Fire Frame Rate Matching - if amazon can do it YouView can do it.

  • JoeJoe Posts: 2,000Member ✭✭✭
    Great Article Matthew. Hope Youview have a read of that. It needs serious consideration. 
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,334Member ✭✭✭
    Does any current subscription TV box offer this?
    But please, no posts of 'ehhh, I remember the days when...' But I doubt the old favourites could have done this. But what about other current recordable TV boxes? Which are SKY and Virgin Media? Can they?
  • dreamtimedreamtime Posts: 187Member
    Yes, thank you Matthew, great article. Thanks for posting.
  • The aftvnews article is great but it is slightly technically incorrect. The testing using the app on the FTV does not tell you what frame rate the TV has changed to. It tells you what framerate the ATV is sending out. A settop box has no idea what frame rate the TV is using. HDMI can only tell the settop box what frame rate the TV supports which is subtly different. The TV may accept 24P video but it may use a fixed screen refresh rate at 60Hz and use a 3:2 pulldown which will still produce judder. It may have a 120Hz refresh rate and use a 5:1 pulldown (ie display the same frame 5 times) with 24P sources which will be judder free.
    If the TV does drop to 24fps screen refresh rate then that can look flickery as such a low refresh rate is below the flicker detection threshold of most individuals.
    Interestingly for that reason cinemas don't really display at 24fps they display at 48fps or even 72fps but repeat the same frame twice or 3 times - the 48/72Hz gate closure is thereby rendered imperceptible. There is a section on this on Wikipedia.
    3.1.4 Film gate and frame advance
    24fps is also very jerky for a settop box UI. That's why Apple TV4K's UI looks very flickery in fixed 24P mode. Most people set the UI to 50/60Hz and switch to 24P only with full screen videos. Unfortunately set top boxes that use picture in picture (Sky for example) would have a terrible time finding a workable solution.
    Another problem is that the "info" button on most TVs don't tell you what the screen refresh rate is - they tell you the input source details. The TV can still be running a higher and/or non-integer multiple screen refresh rate. It is almost certainly running a higher refresh rate if motion blur correction system are turned on as these use frame interpolation which requires the use of in-between frames.

  • Just as a clarification before someone corrects me UI jerkiness and screen flicker are different entities. On regular LCDs there is no low frame rate flicker because the LCD simply changes colour from one frame to the next - it does not dim like film does when the aperture gate is closed. The UI will still seem jerky though for things like animations. The backlight is what illuminates an LCD screen and the usually refreshes at very high rates like 400Hz.
    LCD can "dim" between frames, however, if black frame insertion (BFI) is used as the motion blur correction technology and flicker could then be noticeable - however as I said motion blur correction usually only is done at high refresh rates such as 120Hz. OLED and plasma "pixels" do dim because they are turned on and off independently and there is no backlight so can still flicker at low refresh rates.
    So how your TV displays adaptive refresh rate switching is dependant upon how the TV manufacturer has designed the panel and electronics and what motion blur technique is being used. My 2018 LG OLED stays at 120Hz for 24P, 30P and 60I sources and 100Hz for 25P and 50I sources.
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,334Member ✭✭✭
    edited 16 November 2018, 11:40PM
    Thats an impressive level of technical knowledge you have there Richard and it appears to be not as simple as the article suggests.
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