Youview on Sony AF9

Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
One of the reasons for purchasing the Sony AF9 was the use of Youview.  However, I was dissapointed to see that if I choose the Youview experience over the default Freeview I must do without using the TV’s Freesat channels and tuners.  As I can use Freesat alongside Freeview, I presume the restriction is a consequence of something Youview related.

I would really like to have the full functions of the TV rather than the rediculous loss of Freesat simply for my preference and loyalty to Youview. 
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Comments

  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,692Member ✭✭✭
    edited 8 November 2018, 5:13PM
    I think you can switch out again if you want to watch Freesat, but I gather that it is not a seamless procedure. I am sure that another of our Sony TV acolytes will be along to advise further.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,434Member ✭✭✭
    There is no Freesat on Sony Android TVs.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,002Member ✭✭✭
    These TVs don't have Freesat period, Jeffuk1. Nor do they have a structured EPG,like YouView.

    What they do have is an unmanaged European Satellite platform of over 3000 unmanaged channels, but I don't know if any are UK as I've never bothered loading them. To be honest, I'd rather find 2 hours to waste somewhere else.
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    The A9F (US model) doesn’t have Freesat but the AF9 (UK) certainly does.  Mine has sat inputs, is connected to my dish and I have had it set and watched satellite. It only however works when using Freeview and not Youview.  Instructions clesrly state it. 

    When switching back to Youview, all the channels for Youview must be resinstalled and you lose all the Freesat channels. When you retune the Freesat channels you revert to Freeview.  

    The issue is exactly as i stated and the AF9 has a sat receiver. 
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/televisions/af9-series/specifications

    IF (SATELLITE) CONNECTION INPUT(S) - 2 (Bottom)
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,002Member ✭✭✭
    edited 9 November 2018, 11:34PM
    Yes, it has a Sat receiver. But Sony don't have a licence for Freesat and never have.

    You'll have to take your complaint to the supplier if such restrictions weren't stipulated. 
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    Thanks.  Yes I was using the word Freesat generically in meaning not chargeable ie Sky.  

    My point is that the satellite cannot be used when Youview is chosen over Freeview. If Freeview is used you can also use the sat channels.  
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    Thanks,  I’m not certain the thread caught the issue.  With Youview you get Nosat. With Freeview you at least get sat. 
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,002Member ✭✭✭
    Oh, I get what you mean now...

    If you enable Satellite you'll also be able to access Digital Terrestrial Television (note not Freeview), but won't also be able to access YouView.

    But heres the crux - If you enable YouView, it will wipe all the Sat channels from the TV, period, and to get them back you'll have to exit YouView first and then re-install them.

    You can have Digital Terrestrial Television and Satellite TV together, but not have YouView with either of them.
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    Exactly.  I’m no techie but it feels like someone somewhere has made a decision as without technical knowledge intuitively I feel I ought to be able to use the sat tuner with either Youview or the  ordinary terrestial tuner.  To a simpleton they are just gui’s.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,434Member ✭✭✭
    edited 10 November 2018, 8:38AM
    @Jeffuk1

    It is important to distinguish between Freesat and satellite reception generally - Freesat is a superior, Freeview-like, EPG for satellite services, which these Sony TVs do not possess, having only the basic Now and Next programme information.

    In several cases, buyers who thought these sets had Freesat - some assuming it, some having been actively mis-sold - have sent these TVs back and obtained an alternative that does really have  Freesat. So it matters.

    Have you actually tried switching to Satellite from YouView? It has been reported on the Community here that this is now possible, though the documentation still says you can’t. But I have no personal experience of this, not having satellite here.

    A small point is that if you switch away from YouView to the ‘Freeview’ side, you don’t actually have to retune on the way back to YouView; just Skip that step. I have used this to rearrange the channel ordering, something you can only do on the ’Freeview’ side, and preserve that reordering when back in YouView.

    The various services - YouView, DTT (loosely ‘Freeview’), satellite - are more than just GUIs; each has a memory footprint. And though no-one in either Sony or YouView will divulge what the issue is or was that would not allow YouView and satellite simultaneously, I suspect that the memory in these Sony sets could not hold both footprints simultaneously.

    I also suspect this is why YouView on these sets has stalled with most of the usual YouView features found on the boxes still not present. But is the YouView footprint bigger than it should have been, or is Sony’s memory smaller than it should have been? That’s the question that makes everybody look at their shoes.

    However, while this might have been the case with the 2015 sets, you’d think increasing the memory on the later ones would have been fairly straightforward. So perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye.

    Or doesn’t, in the case of satellite  :p

    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • DJHB1980DJHB1980 Posts: 127Member
    Let’s not be over pedantic about the opening posters use of the word FreeSat when he means getting satellite free on his TV.

    i think it’s disappointing that there is no real structure like with the FreeSat EPG for satellite on TV’s without FreeSat branding but that have a single or dual Set of satellite inputs. 
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    edited 11 November 2018, 5:29PM
    Thanks,  

    It’s dissapointing that Sony go to the trouble of producing an extraordinary TV like the AF9 that cost £4k for the larger version, has all the required hardware components but have not gone the last few inches with an apprpriate  usability interface that brings it all together.

    Failing that, I’m sure that there must be some logical reasons, but if Youview is a collaboration of channel providers partly to compete with chargeable satellite provers, then why would they not want to port the Youview platform to work on satellite tuners to make users with a dish paying for Sky realise that what is available from their dish without the chargeable Sky channels may well be more than adequate for them.   It would be great if they enhanced the platform ao that it combined  all the free satellites with the free terrestial channels into a single interface on TVs that have both sets of tuners.  To me, at least, it makes sense. 
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,434Member ✭✭✭
    edited 11 November 2018, 10:53PM
    Jeffuk1 said:
    Thanks,  

    It’s disappointing that Sony go to the trouble of producing an extraordinary TV like the AF9 that costs £4k for the larger version, and has all the required hardware components, but have not gone the last few inches with an appropriate  usability interface that brings it all together.

    Failing that, I’m sure that there must be some logical reasons, but if Youview is a collaboration of channel providers partly to compete with chargeable satellite providers, then why would they not want to port the Youview platform to work on satellite tuners to make users with a dish paying for Sky realise that what is available from their dish without the chargeable Sky channels may well be more than adequate for them.   It would be great if they enhanced the platform ao that it combined  all the free satellites with the free terrestial channels into a single interface on TVs that have both sets of tuners.  To me, at least, it makes sense. 
    A couple of misapprehensions there, @Jeffuk1, from my understanding, at least.

    Firstly, the UI on the AF9 was the fundamental starting point, not the endpoint, and certainly not a hastily added afterthought. Sony made the design decision to use the Google Android TV UI, and this clunky thing has been dragging their sets down since 2015. The OLED shootout in the November What HiFi? gave the crown to LG, because of the Sony UI shortcomings, even though Sony use LG panels and arguably get a better picture from them than LG themselves can.

    And Sony seems to have split into two design and engineering teams; one ensuring that the picture on these sets is better than ever, with more than adequate hardware, and the other building the UI with underspecified hardware and ongoing software problems, besides the issues that mean YouView has never been able to realise its full potential (as shown by its PVRs) on these TVs.

    Secondly, YouView was never intended as a challenge to Sky; rather, it was intended as a superset of Freeview, with all the Freeview channels, all the Players, and the ability to choose programmes directly off the EPG, to watch if live, record if in the future, and uniquely then, to watch on catchup if they were past but available on a player.

    So the challenge was to Freeview; a challenge that has been answered with Freeview Play, especially after the ISP tail started wagging the YouView dog, and things like BT TV and BT Sport did start looking like a challenge to Sky.

    YouView, for one reason or another, was always about OTA broadcasts, never satellite; and satellite tuners are different from the SD and HD broadcast tuners, so adding those to YouView boxes would have added cost and complication; and YouView and its predecessors had enough trouble getting off the ground due to their perceived threat to Freeview, without taking on Sky as well; even as it was, Sky tried to stop YouView getting permission to launch.

    What you are looking for though, perhaps, is provided by Panasonic, with Freeview Play plus Freesat on some of their TVs, though admittedly not integrated. But even if they were, would it make that much difference? Despite this USP, Panasonic haven’t swept the board, and still trail some way behind the big three TV manufacturers who don’t offer this.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,002Member ✭✭✭

     "Why would they not want to port the Youview platform to work on satellite tuners?

    Because Freetime From Freesat already has that market cornered.

    Freetime From Freesat is YouViews satellite clone and do a very good job of it.

    Freetime From Freesat was only ever intended to be on Freesat. YouView only on Digital terrestrial television.
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,002Member ✭✭✭
    edited 11 November 2018, 11:11PM
    "Roy>
    "YouView was never intended as a challenge to Sky."


    Indeed it wasn't. It was introduced as an alternative to and via DTT. 
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    Thanks, I’m not sure about misapprehensions, but other shootouts and reviews gave “the crown” to Sony.  There are lot’s of improvements in this TV which were important to me, the least not being a sound system that is just about good enough to jack in soundbars or larger system.  In any event the ui presumably was built for the AF9 and the A9F, and one large market doesn’t have satellite tuners.

    The Android UI is blisteringly fast and doesn’t seem to me to have any problems ... apart from not being able to load Now TV as an app.  Not a problem because it isn’t something I try except when on a silly offer. 

    I have just bought a TV which is really great in all respects except this irritating  one.  I have a Hummy Freesat and two BT recorders as well as a motorised system and having bought a new TV, and with a very, very clear preference for Youview rather than Freeview, I’m hardly looking to replace the Sony with a Panasonic and I do not believe I chose the wrong TV.

    But thanks for the information. 
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,434Member ✭✭✭
    Cheers @Jeffuk1

    I hope I didn’t give the impression that I thought you had bought the wrong TV - we didn’t touch, for one thing, on sound, where the rear sub and the screen shakers give the AF9 quite a USP.

    I just mentioned the Panny sets because they have both Freeview and Freesat, as you desired, and so represent a solution for those where this consideration outweighs all others; but of course, they don’t have YouView, which was a strong factor in your AF9 choice.

    Thiugh I must confess I blinked a bit at this, as there is much in the PVR YouView feature set that is missing on these TVs; enough difference for some people who have bought a Sony Android TV on the promise of ‘YouView’ to send them back, or get a YouView box as well, because of the disparities.

    A £20 NowTV stick, at the small cost of occupying an HDMI port, is what I always recommend to those who want NowTV, and used to recommend to those who moved off the YouView UI and therefore lost the itv Hub and All4, though there is an unofficial software workaround for that now.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    edited 12 November 2018, 12:05PM
    If you reread my OP, I didn’t indicate in my post that I was unaware of the restriction that Youview makes when trying to use the satellite tuner.  I was aware of it before I made my purchase, and my purchase was an informed choice.  I am delighted with my purchase.  I merely registered here my irritation with the restriction as a place to inform Youview, along with my  communication to them via the beta tester team.  You have have corrected me earlier when I mentioned that Youview was offered as an alternative to Sky. Below is a part of the announcement when introducing  the BT Youview TV advertising campaign. 

    “BT is one of the seven investors in the YouView consortium, which has developed an internet-connected set-top box, bringing catch-up and pay-TV functionality as an alternative to signing up to Virgin Media and Sky.”

    I am a long-term user and beta-tester of Youview. I have most Youview boxes.  I remained open minded about Freeview and even bought the Humax FVP 500T, which I returned after trying it and finding it lacking. I reverted to my previous solution of two BT  UHD set-top boxes working together to provide the amount of recording I need.   I find on STBs Youview to be much better and to my own preferences than Freeview.   It was therefore a perfectly logical choice for me and was a bonus when deciding to buy the Sony AF9.  I cannot praise the AF9 enough it is an extraordinary TV.   Youview integrates perfectly well on the AF9 except for the issue I raise here.

    Thanks for you pointers on the other thrad suggesting I read other background reading but my presence here wasn’t in any way intended to give the impression that I am interested in conducting detailed resarch on the issue.  


  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    edited 12 November 2018, 12:28PM
    Hi, if you reread my OP I didn't indicate that I was unaware of the Youview limitation before I purchased the Sony AF9.  The Sony AF9 was an informed purchase, and I am delighted with it.  I'm simply irritated with this restriction which doesn't seem necessary. I have used the forum to register this irritation with Youview as well as through the beta-tester team, as a long-term Youview beta-tester. 

    You corrected me earlier and said that Youview was never intended to be offered as an alternative to Sky.  This isn't correct.  When BT launched it's Youview TV campaign to the industry it said.

    "BT is one of the seven investors in the YouView consortium, which has developed an internet-connected set-top box, bringing catch-up and pay-TV functionality as an alternative to signing up to Virgin Media and Sky."

    With respect to Youview v Freeview.  I own all Youview boxes as well as others.  Youview works perfectly on the Sony AF9 in it's integration of player apps. The only frustration is that it might with better cooperation have been an opportunity to offer a TV with 4 integrated tuners and a beefy HD drive added with the joy of the Youview interface to bring it all together and do away with STBs.  It doesn't do that, but I am happy to live with what it does. I remain open minded about Freeview but I recently bought the Humax FVP 5000T but frankly found it as user-friendly as a cornered rabid dog.  It was clunky and eventually unusable and regrably I returned it with a long list of my view of it's defects.  It seemed almost faulty in many respects, so I reverted to my previous process of using two BT UHD boxes working together.

    Thanks for your pointers on the other thread, but I never intended my post here to imply that I'm sufficiently interested in carrying on any detailed further research on the issue, I simply wished to register the irritatation with it with Youview.


  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,692Member ✭✭✭
    Now that we have established that Sony uses neither Freeview, nor Freesat, but DTT and satellite channels are otherwise apparently interchangeable, is there any technical reason why invoking YouView makes the TV behave as it does? Or is this simply some sort of licensing restriction, which would lay the "blame" at YouView's door?
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,434Member ✭✭✭
    Thanks @Jeffuk1

    I tracked your quote down to an article by Daniel Farey-Jones in Campaign in 2013; it is hard to know if he was quoting something BT told him, or putting his own spin on it.

    But I certainly can’t find it as a direct BT quote, let alone a YouView one.

    And as I said above, BT and TalkTalk did start dragging YouView into competion with Sky; but that was never the idea with projects Kangaroo and Canvas, the forerunners to YouView. Or even, as far as I can tell, a direction taken by YouView itself at its initial launch.

    But I’m glad you like your AF9; I think I would be put off by the way it leans back, or is this unnoticeable in practice?
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,434Member ✭✭✭
    edited 12 November 2018, 5:51PM
    redchiz said:
    Now that we have established that Sony uses neither Freeview, nor Freesat, but DTT and satellite channels are otherwise apparently interchangeable, is there any technical reason why invoking YouView makes the TV behave as it does? Or is this simply some sort of licensing restriction, which would lay the "blame" at YouView's door?
    It has been reported on this forum that the restriction no longer applies, and YouView can now coexist with satellite on these sets.

    I do not know if this is true, or true only for the latest sets, or not true at all.

    i think when YouView and Sony started out together, there was a pretty clear intention that YouView and satellite would coexist, and that YouView on these sets, with an added HDD, would be as close to YouView PVR functionality as it was possible to get.

    So nothing to do with licence restrictions at all.

    And I think it foundered when even the cut-down YouView we have now could not be shoe-horned into these sets without something else having to give, that something in the first instance being simultaneous satellite use.

    But no-one from Sony or YouView will even say if this is the case, let alone who is responsible for the footprint mismatch, if this is indeed a footprint mismatch issue.
    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,692Member ✭✭✭
    Thanks for that @Roy, so a wee bit unfair to point the finger at YouView in this instance? For once!
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    edited 12 November 2018, 6:08PM
    Roy said:
    Thanks @Jeffuk1

    I tracked your quote down to an article by Daniel Farey-Jones in Campaign in 2013; it is hard to know if he was quoting something BT told him, or putting his own spin on it.

    But I certainly can’t find it as a direct BT quote, let alone a YouView one.

    And as I said above, BT and TalkTalk did start dragging YouView into competion with Sky; but that was never the idea with projects Kangaroo and Canvas, the forerunners to YouView. Or even, as far as I can tell, a direction taken by YouView itself at its initial launch.

    But I’m glad you like your AF9; I think I would be put off by the way it leans back, or is this unnoticeable in practice?
    I do not notice the slight incline of the AF9. It is an extraordinary TV, and far exceeded our expectations except for the one discussed here.  Even on the 65” the upscaling is extremely impressive. 

    It was widely reported that one of Youviews aims was to take on and beat Sky.  I see no reason why it wouldn’t be and I saw it often.  eg

    “The new deal will almost certainly mean that BT and TalkTalk will shoulder the bulk of the additional funding required - they are very keen to develop full mobile TV services to challenge BSkyB's Sky Go service, for example.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/may/12/youview-increase-staff-sky-bbc-itv-channel-4
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,434Member ✭✭✭
    Yes, BT again.

    But going head to head with Sky did not go very well for them, something that I suspect YouView knew all along, as the pure retail side never attempted this.

    “Where’s ‘Jump to Time’ then? And all that other OldGen good stuff we were promised back, including the proper ‘Hide Channels’ and so on?” (Excerpt from ‘One Billboard Outside YouView Towers’, not coming soon to a box near you)
  • redchizredchiz Posts: 4,692Member ✭✭✭
    And now BT are in the process of welcoming Sky to the YouView platform, but you will need a subscription and one of their boxes for that.
  • Jeffuk1Jeffuk1 Posts: 28Member
    edited 12 November 2018, 6:33PM
    Youview boxes certainly weaned us off of a ridiculous monthly Sky cost.

     I thought I’d retry Now TV on their entertainment and film for £99 per year - bought it in May and we haven’t used it.  We do not miss Sky at all.  Netflix is well integrated into the Sony box and I use that sometimes with VPN.  

    The only thing I’d like is the Sky box or the Virgin box, hence our trying the 5000T which I really wanted to like, but it was rubbish.  I asked Youview why there wasn’t a Youview version of the 5000T and was told it was purely a `Hummy decision.  So I asked Hummy and they said it was a Youview decision.  

    A youview version of the 5000T would be a perfect box for me failing the Youview Sony version discussed here. 
  • VisionmanVisionman Posts: 9,002Member ✭✭✭
    A Humax 5000T is a good idea poorly implemented, which is still not a patch on YouView 
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