Puzzled

jimb

I'm currently using a T2000 in my lounge and a T2100 in the bedroom.
I really like the iPlayer live restart feature activated by holding the OK button for several seconds and use it frequently with the T2000.
All of a sudden this is now available on my T2100.
Its software version is 31.69.0.
There is no mention of this feature in the software update page.
I am totally puzzled. 
Can anyone explain what is going on? 

Roy

With the current YouView update strategy, you can get updates to the Component Software even when the Manufacturer Software stays the same.

So are you on 3.5.132, within 31.69.0?

skiller

Roy said:

So are you on 3.5.132, within 31.69.0?

I can't speak for @jimb, but I too have just recently noticed the introduction of this feature on my T2100 and my software versions are 31.69.0 / 3.5.132 (bcf5e4) and have been since approx 13/11/18. (I keep a record of all software changes whenever I spot them changing.)

The "Platform Configuration" often changes though without any announcements and I did notice it had changed again recently so that may be something to do with it. To be honest, I don't have a clue what the "Platform Configuration" number represents.

Having said that, the introduction of a new feature does not, of course, imply a new version of software - the existing software could well be configured to accept new features as and when they are made available.

scott

this supplements something I was discussing on the software thread. We know iPlayer restart has been available since 31.56 (3.5.102 component) software. All the builds contain the code for all the features but can be turned on and off by each platform depending on thier agendas. The only thing the surprises me is that this was switched on without any formal notification, but then again the notifications from BT have always been shocking and rely on YouView to announce them. 
If it has happened only recently (which was what I was trying to ascertain on the other thread) then maybe it is just a late notification and something may still be announced albeit after the event.

jimb

Thanks for all that folks.
So the code was just lurking there waiting to be turned.
It would be great if all the features of Discover and Watch List were turned on for the T2100 as well, but I suspect that this doesn't fit with BT's "agenda" (as @scott very appropriately refers to it). BT probably want you to only discover content from the BT Player - in order to generate income.

Visionman

Its certainly fascinating conjecture that BT hold the power to stop/prevent/delay a joint stakeholder from launching new features and that theres all this code floating around vaporworld just waiting for a switch to be thrown.

Conjecture; - an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

jimb

Well that's pretty patronising even by your standards. 
But leaving that aside... 
"... BT hold the power to stop/prevent/delay a joint stakeholder from launching new features..."
What on earth are you talking about? 

scott

So in other words you are saying BT’s software is IDENTICAL to YouView’s, hmm I could swear BT doesn’t have watchlist or discover.
Of course BT have an input into what they want YouView to develop and that might not be the same as retail YouView get (no sign of Amazon on retail yet) and of course BT can decide if they take the feature or not. No one is saying BT can tell YouView what NOT to develop (we have always said quite the opposite), so don’t really understand why you think your statement is correct visionman when we can actually see it isnt.
We know iPlayer restart has only just been turned on for BT boxes and we know there has been no software update on these boxes for some time (and it has been on retail since 31.56) so how do you explain that appearing if it can’t be enabled by just a configuration change in the installed software.

Visionman

"So in other words you are saying BT’s software is IDENTICAL to YouView’s,"

No scott, I'm saying nothing of the kind. I mean heck scott, you don't even know why your two boxes are displaying different features?

"We know iPlayer restart has only just been turned on for BT boxes."

No scott, it wasn't and I've had it for a while. Wax on wax off, wax on wax off. No. 

scott

I know exactly why my boxes have different features So how long have you had it on your box because looking on a few forums there have been a few people just noticing it in the last few weeks, so can you say you have had it since early November/December when the last BT software was dropped, as to make your comment make sense that would need to be the case.

Visionman

scott, your spreading your opinion as fact, when it is just opinion.

Visionman

Scott>
"All the builds contain the code for all the features but can be turned on and off by each platform depending on thier agendas."

Proof?

jimb

"... BT hold the power to stop/prevent/delay a joint stakeholder from launching new features..."
What on earth are you talking about? 
Answer the question @Visionman

Visionman

@jimb
I started that sentence by saying  Its certainly fascinating conjecture that "... BT hold the power to stop/prevent/delay a joint stakeholder from launching new features..."

jimb

So why did you make that statement? 
It has absolutely no relevance to anything that's been posted in this thread. 
Or is this just another example of your illogical thinking? 

Visionman

Or yours? You asked a simple question. Do you feel its been answered?

jimb

Note to self: don't engage with this idiot.

scott

Visionman, everything I say on here is my opinion. I am happy to be proved wrong and I am happy for people to disagree with me, that’s what makes a good forum and conversation. I say things for people to prove me wrong or put thier argument I have at no point said mine is fact and everything you say is a lie. I have asked you to back up your argument by telling me when you got that feature and how it was enabled if it wasn’t already in the code.
You never give a proper argument just talk as though you know better and give no evidence how or why.
Skiller states it has only just become available on his box and nothing has changed since November as he keeps records, only the platform configuration. Platform configuration can not add things to the GUI it can only enable things that are already in the code. Please tell me how I am wrong about this (discuss).

Visionman

Scott>
"All the builds contain the code for all the features but can be turned on and off by each platform depending on thier agendas."

Proof?

scott

Visionman said:

Scott>
"All the builds contain the code for all the features but can be turned on and off by each platform depending on thier agendas."

Proof?

Proof that you only know how to be petty without any idea. You have provided that all by yourself.

Visionman

scott, you have made a statement of fact. So how can agendas do that?

scott

Visionman, at the risk of boring everybody, I have been told it is a commercial decision by BT not to utilise discover and watchlist, therefore in my opinion it is BT’s agenda to push its customers to the BT player to discover content and not turn on this feature. I have also stated why I think the code is there.
Now try putting your proper argument as to why I am wrong rather than your childish, I know you are you said you are, argument.

P.S the only reason I am even replying is because the strong winds are keeping me awake

Visionman

scott>
"I have been told it is a commercial decision by BT not to utilise discover and watchlist."

Then my apologies. Crossed purposes. This thread is talking about the BBCs live restart. Sorry again!

Roy

One conjecture that could explain what is being seen is that the feature relies on being able to give a certain request to the BBC iPlayer software, to play the current program from the beginning. We know the iPlayer was upgraded a while back to offer the user choice of play live or play from the beginning, and maybe it took longer to create an iPlayer that could do this via its API?

So the feature would be in the YouView software, on the basis that it could ask the iPlayer if it supported Play From Start; if the iPlayer said yes, then the YouView software would offer the user the option to choose the restart; but if the iPlayer said no, then the user offer would not be made.

The recent availability of this feature would then be explained by there being an update of the BBC iPlayer to add this capability, an update that we likely wouldn’t notice, that then allowed the YouView software to offer this ‘new’ feature without a new YouView release being necessary.

Roy

Regarding code differences between BT and Retail releases of the YouView software, there are a few points to be made:-

Firstly, any YouView box has to work on, and support, the operation of any ISP; so my Retail Box, if I subscribed to BT TV, has to give me all the capabilities I need to use BT TV; likewise if I were to subscribe to TalkTalk.

So these capabilities must be present in all the code bases, ready to spring into action if one of these ISPs is detected - just as my Retail box does on finding I am using BT - and into further action if it detects I am a subscriber.

It would be illuminating to take a BT box that does not support Discover and Watchlist and try it on a non-BT ISP; would these features come back, showing they had always been in the code but suppressed by an ISP switch, or would they still be absent?

But if the latter, we still wouldn’t know if they were present, but hard-switched off, present in a shared code base but IFDEFed out of BT compilations, or not present at all in the source code used by BT.

Similar considerations apply to published ISP-specific extensions, like Amazon on the BT platform, with regard to it appearing, or not, when BT boxes with it are used on non-BT ISPs.

So some things about how and whether the code base is shared are deducible, which will support certain hypotheses and rule out others, and some aren’t.

I suppose we could ask YouView to explain how it’s done, if they don’t mind telling us, or maybe it’s a trade secret....

skiller

Roy said:

It would be illuminating to take a BT box that does not support Discover and Watchlist and try it on a non-BT ISP; would these features come back, showing they had always been in the code but suppressed by an ISP switch, or would they still be absent?

I agree with all that you say, but just to let you know (and I thought this was pretty common knowledge, particularly to a man of your calibre ) that a BT box that doesn't have Watch List or Discover (but does have Amazon) remains like that regardless of which ISP it is connected to. Actually, I may be making an assumption here after all. I have a T2100 and a T2200 that behave like that. I am assuming that all the other variants of BT boxes behave that way too - even BT retail (which I believe don't have Amazon anyway).

At least, that is the case currently. Who knows if that may change in the future?*

*Btw, that question is rhetorical. It doesn't have the answer "Visionman".

Visionman

Thanks skiller and no, your not assuming anything.  

scott

@roy - sorry early morning so not quite got my head working. Regarding your theory about the update to the iPlayer, the iPlayer restart has been working on the retail T2000 since 31.56 (August I think) so why would there be a change to the iPlayer to allow the BT boxes to spring into life, also it would still need the code to be in the software to allow the GUI the show up, a player update would not suddenly allow functionality on the box GUI if it wasnt there anyway. So I still stand by my statement that the boxes always have the code built.
i believe someone with a BT box using it on a TalkTalk line still gets the Amazon app as I thought I saw mentioned on the TalkTalk forum.
My retail box still has discover and watchlist on a BT isp so the features stay available or not depending on the box not the isp. The isp just dictates the colour scheme.

Visionman

scott>
"i believe someone with a BT box using it on a TalkTalk line still gets the Amazon app as I thought I saw mentioned on the TalkTalk forum."

Yes thats right, as confirmed above by skiller. Any box supplied by BT will support Amazon and work on any ISPs line. As will BBC LiVE.

scott

Yes Visionman so I was just answering Roy that his statement is actually incorrect in that a box has to support ALL the features no matter which ISP. Because a retail box will not support Amazon even if connected to a BT isp with a BTTV subscription, you would need a BT specific box for that. None of this actually helps with the code question but I believe the iPlayer restart does (as this appeared on BT boxes without a new code upgrade).
Of course we will probably never know if things like discover are actually in the BT code I am playing devils advocate a bit by stating it is (and I also think the software numbers being identical except the last digit .0 or .10 would lead me to believe they are built the same - adding in bits of code if decided later is a tricky business as things move on and deeper integration is added), of course some features may be added by component updates as if they are separate bolt ins but again I think the component versions are kept similar.

Roy

@skiller

As the circus owner wailed when his Human Cannonball quit, “But where am I going to find another man of your calibre?”

But one thing I don’t have in my extensive armoury of things YouView is access to an alternative ISP, which is why I didn’t know what my T4000 might do and not do if used on a different ISP.

So thanks for the update here.

@scott (or @skiller, or indeed anyone with a non-BT ISP)

It is my belief that besides the colour scheme, the ISP dictates (or more accurately, the software in the box dictates, based on the detected ISP) whether or not the BT Player appears in the Main Menu, and whether or not the BT channels appear in the Guide. And, presumably, the equivalents for TalkTalk and PlusNet, if those ISPs are detected. So a bit more than just the colour scheme.

From your experience, is this accurate?

If so, it would confirm my point about the quite extensive common code base, with features that pop up and down according to who your ISP is.

But as you say, @scott (and thanks for the clarification here) this doesn’t quite apply to the BT  code base, which contains Amazon and shows it on any ISP, whereas the non-BT code base does not contain it (most probably) or if it does, never offers it to the user (less probably, though you can’t tell which is the case here).

Likewise, the absence of Discover and Watchlist (or their permanent suppression) in the BT code base. Though here I think it more probable that they are in the YouView-supplied source, and suppressed in the BT executable or IFDEFed out of it, rather than not in the source.

But who knows, outside of YouView and BT?

However, this is likely an example of the actual forking off of the BT variant, which is quite a big step for YouView, who I think would very much have preferred to keep a common code base.