Recordings ending too soon

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  • SarahSarah Administrator Posts: 1,762 admin
    Hiya,
    We've found that this is affecting channels on the D3&4 mux so escalated to DUK & Arqiva. We are aware that this issue is affecting TalkTalk boxes in different ways to the BT & Humax retail devices e.g. Short and failed recordings vs clipped recordings. This will be the same for other recording devices which are affected by this issue. 
    I'll post another update when we have anything new to share. 
    Thanks,
    Sarah
  • meyou2meyou2 Member Posts: 48
    Sarah said:
    Hiya,
    We've found that this is affecting channels on the D3&4 mux so escalated to DUK & Arqiva. We are aware that this issue is affecting TalkTalk boxes in different ways to the BT & Humax retail devices e.g. Short and failed recordings vs clipped recordings. This will be the same for other recording devices which are affected by this issue. 
    I'll post another update when we have anything new to share. 
    Thanks,
    Sarah
    As I've reported before in this thread, the programme I most regularly get the clipped recordings problem with is on 5USA and that's on the COM4 mux.  And I get the problem on other muxes too (inc BBCA).

    Short and failed recordings also happen on multiple muxes, as reported by me in the Talktalk DN372T failed recordings thread and by many people on the TT forums.

    Also, that this is all caused by just problems with broadcast signals flies in the face of the evidence I reported in the 10th of March post above where two DN372Ts both receiving from the same transmitter start and finish recording the same programme at different times, and not just by a second or two but often by a minute or two or more.

    You may have found a problem with the D3&4 mux but if so it's clearly not the cause of all of the clipped/short/failed recordings being reported, and hopefully you are working on the others too.
  • SarahSarah Administrator Posts: 1,762 admin
    meyou2 said:
    Sarah said:
    Hiya,
    We've found that this is affecting channels on the D3&4 mux so escalated to DUK & Arqiva. We are aware that this issue is affecting TalkTalk boxes in different ways to the BT & Humax retail devices e.g. Short and failed recordings vs clipped recordings. This will be the same for other recording devices which are affected by this issue. 
    I'll post another update when we have anything new to share. 
    Thanks,
    Sarah
    As I've reported before in this thread, the programme I most regularly get the clipped recordings problem with is on 5USA and that's on the COM4 mux.  And I get the problem on other muxes too (inc BBCA).

    Short and failed recordings also happen on multiple muxes, as reported by me in the Talktalk DN372T failed recordings thread and by many people on the TT forums.

    Also, that this is all caused by just problems with broadcast signals flies in the face of the evidence I reported in the 10th of March post above where two DN372Ts both receiving from the same transmitter start and finish recording the same programme at different times, and not just by a second or two but often by a minute or two or more.

    You may have found a problem with the D3&4 mux but if so it's clearly not the cause of all of the clipped/short/failed recordings being reported, and hopefully you are working on the others too.
    Hi @meyou2
    We are separately aware of BBC issues with clipped recordings, and the D3&4 mux issue could be affecting recordings on other channels based on the cross-carried signalling for other muxes, depending on your last tuned channel or recording.
    Given the complexities, we will have to wait until those issues are resolved before looking at other examples in more detail. 
    Thanks,
    Sarah
  • SarahSarah Administrator Posts: 1,762 admin
    Hi all, 

    Arqiva are testing a fix on the Crystal Palace at the moment which we believe should resolve this issue for the D3&4 mux. We tested it with a few different programmes yesterday with positive results so if there's anyone who was experiencing this issue on channels on this mux and transmitter, it'd be great to hear how your recordings on these channels go over the next few days. 

    The channels on the D3&4 mux are:
    3 ITV (SD)
    4 Channel 4 (SD) 
    5  Channel 5 (SD)
    6 ITV 2
    10 ITV3
    13 E4 
    14 Film4
    15 Channel 4 +1
    18 More4
    24 ITV4
    26 ITVBe
    33 ITV +1  

    Thanks,
    Sarah
  • meyou2meyou2 Member Posts: 48
    Sarah said:
    Hi all, 

    Arqiva are testing a fix on the Crystal Palace at the moment which we believe should resolve this issue for the D3&4 mux. We tested it with a few different programmes yesterday with positive results so if there's anyone who was experiencing this issue on channels on this mux and transmitter, it'd be great to hear how your recordings on these channels go over the next few days.
    But when I commented above that the problems weren't limited to channels on D3&4 you said that the D3&4 issues could be affecting recordings on other muxes too, but now you are talking about recordings only on D3&4 channels?!?

    FYI, I'm on Crystal Palace and last night was the first time the box successfully recorded a weekday Channel 4 News (4, SD) for a loooong time.


  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,946 ✭✭✭
    meyou2 said:
    Sarah said:
    Hi all, 

    Arqiva are testing a fix on the Crystal Palace at the moment which we believe should resolve this issue for the D3&4 mux. We tested it with a few different programmes yesterday with positive results so if there's anyone who was experiencing this issue on channels on this mux and transmitter, it'd be great to hear how your recordings on these channels go over the next few days.
    But when I commented above that the problems weren't limited to channels on D3&4 you said that the D3&4 issues could be affecting recordings on other muxes too, but now you are talking about recordings only on D3&4 channels?!?

    FYI, I'm on Crystal Palace and last night was the first time the box successfully recorded a weekday Channel 4 News (4, SD) for a loooong time.


    @meyou2

    If the issue is with the Present/Following Indicator that is sent between programmes, then there are two things to consider, since this flag is sent not just for the channel you are trying to record on, but on every channel, so that your box knows the programme is coming up, even if the box is currently tuned to two completely different channels.

    This can give you two possible types of issue for Mux 3/4 programmes, (i) that you don’t get the message, or the message is delayed, if you are tuned to that mux; (ii) that you don’t get it, or it is delayed, even if you aren’t tuned to that mux.

    And (iii) is that even for programmes not on that mux, the P/F may get messed about on 3/4 if you are tuned to that mux.

    So I can entirely see what Sarah is saying about what is most likely to be affected, and that with this known problem in the way, it is very hard to look at other things until it has been cleared.

    And indeed, your experiences with the two DN372Ts starting recording the same programme at different times could be down to exactly the above; one box, not tuned to the 3/4 mux got the message on time; the other, tuned to that mux got it late because of the mux problem, even if the programme you wanted wasn’t even on that mux.

    But this can only be a hypothesis unless we could know what the four tuners on the two boxes were tuned to at the moment the P/Fs arrived; and we don’t know, and possibly can’t know.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • meyou2meyou2 Member Posts: 48
    Roy said:

    So I can entirely see what Sarah is saying about what is most likely to be affected, and that with this known problem in the way, it is very hard to look at other things until it has been cleared.
    Yes, but exactly because of your (i)-(iii) you'd think she'd be asking about how recordings go on all channels, not just the D3&4 mux ones.

    I get that all muxes send out the crids and present/following for all channels, but if you think about it, if two boxes finish recording the same programme at different times (as I've experienced), and it is 'cos of a badly-timed p/f, that means that (at least) one of them took the signal to stop recording from a mux other than the one it was recording, which is a bit of a strange design choice, IMHO.

    (BTW, I did, when I was experimenting, try forcing the boxes to be on different combinations of muxes before they were due to record (by recording two previous programmes at the same time on those different muxes) and I didn't find it made any difference, but it was difficult to be exhaustive, esp. with each experiment taking 24 hours waiting for the next episode to fail (or not), so I didn't write it up and report it here, in my other more detailed thread....)

  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,946 ✭✭✭
    @meyou2

    Good point about the differing finish times. But what do you think the mechanism behind this might be?
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • meyou2meyou2 Member Posts: 48
    Sarah said:
    Hi all, 

    Arqiva are testing a fix on the Crystal Palace at the moment which we believe should resolve this issue for the D3&4 mux. We tested it with a few different programmes yesterday with positive results so if there's anyone who was experiencing this issue on channels on this mux and transmitter, it'd be great to hear how your recordings on these channels go over the next few days.
    Hi @Sarah

    Well, I'm on Crystal Palace and aside from a single dropped-the-beginning incident, which I suspect (but didn't capture the evidence for) was a case of the programme unexpectedly starting a little early while another being recorded finished a little late, I haven't had any recording failures or glitches of any sort since the 6-May.

    No Failed to Record or Partially Recorded, no very short recordings, no lost beginnings or clipped endings, nothing.  Everything has recorded fine, including the programmes I've listed in this and the other thread as persistent/regular failures.  And that's across all muxes, not just D3&4 :-)

    So, it looks like the Arqiva cockup was the problem, and I guess the question others will be asking is when it the fix going to be rolled out to all affected transmitters?




  • Louise MurdochLouise Murdoch Administrator Posts: 102 admin

    Hi all,

    Apologies for the delay in updating you.

    First of all, thank you for all of the reports of this issue and for those of you who conducted your own investigations into the problems you were seeing – all of the information you helped to provide has been fundamental in our investigation.

    Following the Crystal Palace test and the positive feedback seen from this (both via viewer reports and data), Arqiva and D3&4 conducted a further investigation into the regions we knew to be affected and discovered that in these regions, the transmitters were using their “B” feed inputs, rather than their “A” inputs which they should be set to prefer and revert to. At some point on the 22nd January, where we first saw the increase in failed, short and clipped recordings, a glitch caused these transmitters to select their “B” inputs and did not revert back to “A”.The different behaviour of these input feeds is what caused the issue with recordings, rather than using the correct p/f signalling triggers provided by the CSI (or channel) they defaulted to using the EPG timings.

    Arqiva rectified the issue on the 8th May across all affected regions, and will be conducting a retrospective exercise to better understand the root cause with their hardware vendors.

    Thank you,
    Louise.
  • noveltynovelty Member Posts: 7
    I have not been using my Talktalk box for months because of the problem but I will start to monitor it closely now. I am served by the Dover transmitter
  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 491 ✭✭
    edited 23 May 2020, 8:37PM
    @Louise Murdoch 

    I've just been informed on the TalkTalk forum that the issue is still occuring in Northern Ireland. Has the solution been applied there or was this area overlooked?
  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 491 ✭✭
    @Louise Murdoch and now another from the Midlands region.
  • Louise MurdochLouise Murdoch Administrator Posts: 102 admin
    Hi @Stevef_fr8ys

    The Midlands was not one of the affected regions, so if the user has been seeing short/failed and clipped recordings since January this could be another issue (potentially specific to their box).

    Northern Ireland was one of the affected regions, however, checking the data I can see the region does now have the correct signalling, along with all other regions. It is very likely the user has been experiencing these issues up until the 8th May, however they should not have continued.

    To look into the cases further we would need a little more information, such as affected programmes, software version, whether a maintenance mode reset resolves the issue, do previously recorded programmes work.

    Thank you for letting us know, please do if you see any further reports too (or, if easier, ask the user to post here?)

    Louise :smile:
  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 491 ✭✭

    Thanks Louise.

    I will post back on these. I have asked them to post here, but they seem reluctant to do so.

    Steve

  • zulu17zulu17 Member, Super User Posts: 1,077 ✭✭
    edited 26 May 2020, 7:02PM
    It was mentioned that there were separate issues with the BBC channels, is there an update on when these are likely to be resolved please ?
    There do seem to continuing issues with BBC 2 HD  (Crystal Palace) as recently as this weekend.
  • sophiesophie Member Posts: 4
    I have been having the same issues with channels ITV, 4 and 5 etc. The signals go all the time and the recordings are now failing. I am from Worthing so my transmitter is Findon. Do you know of any issues there? 
  • Louise MurdochLouise Murdoch Administrator Posts: 102 admin
    Hi @zulu17

    We have no update as of yet re: BBC clipped recordings, however, we do expect there could be some impact due to the daily news briefings.

    Could you share what programmes you have seen clipping on BBC channels?

    Hi @sophie

    Welcome to the community!

    Issues with television signal are slightly different to what was reported and resolved in this thread. If your Youview Box has no signal (which usually results in a YVM302) it is very likely you will see failed recordings. Are you seeing any YVM302 errors on your device?

    Thanks,
    Louise.
  • sophiesophie Member Posts: 4
    Hi Louise,
    Yes we have been getting the YV302 error but I find it weird that it's only those same channels as everyone else that we are having signal issues with. The recordings are failing for all other channels too.
  • zulu17zulu17 Member, Super User Posts: 1,077 ✭✭
    The clipped programme on BBC 2 HD this weekend was The Age Of Shadows scheduled at 00:45 on 24/05  , it was an accurate start to the recording but ended at the EPG guide time.Probably clipped by 1 to 2 minutes based upon checking ending on Iplayer.
  • SarahSarah Administrator Posts: 1,762 admin
    Hi all, 
    Since this particular issue has been resolved, we are closing off the comments for this thread. If you have any issues regarding recordings, please start a new thread and we can assist you there. 
    Thanks,
    Sarah
This discussion has been closed.