TalkTalk Software Update 60.48.91 & 72.48.91 / 3.6.216

2

Comments

  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 327 ✭✭
    @sbucc, forgive me if I'm getting the wrong impression from your post, but the resolution you are quoting seems strange to me if your TV is capable of 1080p, and your box is outputting something different.

    I don't have a 360T but my 372T box has the option to change the output. This may be a silly question of I've misunderstood your problem, but have you tried changing this in the menu. And also the various sound options within the menu for HDMI?
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    edited 29 September 2020, 11:56AM
    jonesh said:
    When did the problem start @sbucc? This update was released on the 9th June, so your box probably received it by the end of that month.
    The HDMI socket on your Youview box could be damaged. I think that an HDMI plug makes nineteen connections with the socket. They might not be all in use, but an error would show up if one of the ones that are in use isn't connecting properly.
    The problem started recently, 1-2 days before my first post.
    I don't know for sure when the update was downloaded, but it was a "phased roll out" so maybe it took longer to reach my box, also because I always switch it off at the wall overnight.
    I think I did a manual update recently (or it was initiated by the system, can't remember), but to be honest it could be _after_ the issue started. So yes, a hardware fault cannot be excluded, but I'm very sceptical because box and TV _can_ connect over HDMI, only with an error message that clearly states that the problem is an HDCP handshake failure.
    Moreover, during startup, the spashscreen is shown at 720p, it switches down to 640x480 only at the end of the boot process (clearly when it checks the HDCP keys).
    So, if not the software update, what else could have caused the HDCP error?
    The one event that I'm pretty sure happened right before the error is me switching on the Wii for the first time in ages, and then when I switched back to the youview box I got YVM607, but I really can't see how this can be the real cause. The Wii is connected over component video, not HDMI.
    I tried to connect the box to 2 monitors, but via DVI+adapter, so I'm not sure it is 100 conclusive. Both negotiated 640x480 with YVM607 error, same as the TV.
    The last thing I can think of is attaching the box to a _new_ TV or monitor via HDMI, but I have to untangle the power supply cable from the mess behind the furniture and take it to a friend to do that, I'll update when I manage to do it.

  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    @sbucc, forgive me if I'm getting the wrong impression from your post, but the resolution you are quoting seems strange to me if your TV is capable of 1080p, and your box is outputting something different.

    I don't have a 360T but my 372T box has the option to change the output. This may be a silly question of I've misunderstood your problem, but have you tried changing this in the menu. And also the various sound options within the menu for HDMI?
    @Stevef_fr8ys, first of all, HELP! Can you still see my last post? I don't know how but think I have accidentally deleted it, if you see it, can you please repost it?
  • StephenStephen Member Posts: 715 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here it is:
    @sbucc said:
    jonesh said:
    When did the problem start @sbucc? This update was released on the 9th June, so your box probably received it by the end of that month.The HDMI socket on your Youview box could be damaged. I think that an HDMI plug makes nineteen connections with the socket. They might not be all in use, but an error would show up if one of the ones that are in use isn't connecting properly.
    Yes, in fact I don't know for sure when the update was downloaded, but it was a "phased roll out" so maybe it took longer to reach my box, also because I always switch it off at the wall overnight.
    Unfortunately the "last updated" date in the settings doesn't help, because I did a number of factory and maintenance resets in the last few days, so it shows that date. I wish I'd checked that first thing but... I didn't.
    I think I did a manual update recently (or it was initiated by the system, can't remember), but to be honest it could be _after_ the issue with the HDMI. So yes, a hardware fault cannot be excluded, but I'm very sceptical because box and TV _can_ connect over HDMI, only with an error message that clearly states that the problem is an HDCP handshake failure.
    If not the software update, what else could have caused the HDCP error?
    The one event that I'm pretty sure happened right before the error is me switching on the Wii for the first time in ages: it connected at 480p (over component video, not HDMI), and then when I switched back to the youview box I got YVM607, but I really can't see how this can be the real cause.
    I tried to connect the box to 2 monitors, but via DVI+adapter, so I'm not sure it is 100 conclusive. Both negotiated 640x480 with YVM607 error.
    The last thing to try is attaching the box to a _new_ TV or monitor via HDMI, but I have to ask a friend for that, I'll update when I have done that.
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    @sbucc, forgive me if I'm getting the wrong impression from your post, but the resolution you are quoting seems strange to me if your TV is capable of 1080p, and your box is outputting something different.

    I don't have a 360T but my 372T box has the option to change the output. This may be a silly question of I've misunderstood your problem, but have you tried changing this in the menu. And also the various sound options within the menu for HDMI?
    @Stevef_fr8ys , I don't know what to say: 640x480 is the resolution that the box outputs when the HDCP handshake fails, plus there is no audio.
    The TV is 1080p, it has always worked with the youview box at 1080p until 4-5 days ago. The youview box is set to output 1080p on HDMI. Both 720p and 1080i from the menu used to work.
    When the box is booting, it starts up at 720p, no doubt about it (clearly because it doesn't know what resolutions the TV is capable of).
    Audio output is set as "stereo", as before.
    If you guys need any screenshots, let me know.
  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 327 ✭✭
    That sounds off in itself. The box should boot at the resolution set in it.

    I'm wondering if there is something in the TV settings that has changed? 

    Can you set sizes etc by HDMI port for example, and a setting has changed? But then you say you have tried the box in a different port and still get the same issue. 

    Does your TV require boxes to be "installed" in its settings? If so try, deleting the box and adding again.

    Oh and by the way, the boxes are designed really to be connected to the internet all the time. Best not to switch it off.

    If the above does not work, are you still in contract with TalkTalk? If so it may be worth posting on there and detail the steps and help you've had, stating you believe you have ruled out the TV and Cables, and the box is probably at fault, and any chance of a replacement.

    https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/TalkTalk-TV/bd-p/116

    Let us know how you get on.


  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    First of all: should perhaps this discussion move to a separate thread? The discussion now seems to have shifted to whether there is something wrong with my setup.
    I reported a possible bug with the release, but if I can't roll back and test, there is nothing else I can do, it's up to the developers to recreate the conditions, or look into the code (my hypothesis that they changed the minimum HDMI version somewhere).
    By the way: do HDCP keys expire?

    > That sounds off in itself. The box should boot at the resolution set in it.

    It clearly doesn't. It always started off at 720p, then switched to 1080p, the resolution I selected in the settings. And now instead it switches down to 640x480. And by the way I'm talking a full boot, from completely off, not from standby, where indeed it remains at the resolution it was when it was "switched off".

    > I'm wondering if there is something in the TV settings that has changed? 

    Unlikely: I haven't touched anything, and I have also tried a factory reset (or two) on the TV.

    > Can you set sizes etc by HDMI port for example, and a setting has changed? But then you say you have tried the box in a different port and still get the same issue. 

    No, there is no option for the HDMI ports on the TV

    > Does your TV require boxes to be "installed" in its settings? If so try, deleting the box and adding again.

    No, no setup required

    > Oh and by the way, the boxes are designed really to be connected to the internet all the time. Best not to switch it off.

    I disagree. Leaving the box on only wastes energy, and the only benefit is maybe earlier overnight updates. My box has always downloaded every update anyway.

    > If the above does not work, are you still in contract with TalkTalk?

    No, contract long expired, so they can rightly tell me that it's not their problem...


  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 327 ✭✭
    Do you get a message re setting start up in smart mode when you have reset the box? If you do this, you can set it extend off hours which will reduce power consumption significantly. I do wonder if the continual on/off that may be confusing some setting somewhere. If you try leaving it on for a few days, I wonder if it will clear itself after trying the following.
    I know you have tried resets from the maintenance menu, but have you done a factory reset from the settings menu.
    Also which HD channels does this occur on, or is it all HD channels?
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭
    edited 29 September 2020, 9:24PM
    If your Youview box could complete the 1080p HDMI handshake with your TV before the update, then it should be able to do so afterwards, whatever version of HDMI cable you are using.
    All problems with Youview boxes happen after one update or another, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the update is the cause of the problem.
    If your box still misbehaves after you have acted on @Stevef_fr8ys's suggestions, then it would seem that it has some sort of hardware issue. How old is it?
  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 327 ✭✭
    Another thought just occurred, do you have a Scart lead attached to the box as well as the HDMI cable when this occurs? If so completely remove the Scart and try again.
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    I found a thread that pretty much describes my situation, and confirms my diagnosis:
    They must have done it again (dropping backwards compatibility for HDMI or HDCP).
    This is plain forced obsolescence (or programmer error), and I don't have any hope that they will ever fix it...

    I couldn't agree more: if it was working before then it should still be working now. And no, the firmware upgrade doesn't necessarily have to be the reason for the error, but I suspect it is.
    The box is old, either 2012 or 2015, but as long as it works, no reason to throw it away, we generate enough waste as it is. Before I admit that it has actually developed a hardware fault, I want to try everything, and all the symptoms point to a software issue, not hardware.
    This box is old but it has some nice features: pause, players, and DVB-T2 tuner, all things that my ancient TV lacks. I really want to get my HDMI back, but to be honest I'd rather use it via SCART than throw it away.

    - I always have either HDMI or SCART plugged, never both. Before the error I only ever had HDMI. The error started with only HDMI connected.
    - I tried both resets, from the settings menu and from the maintenance mode
    - I get the message "try SMART mode" every time I boot up, because the box is set for full saving. I tried SMART mode, but it doesn't change a thing, and I'm not changing this again, because this box, when it goes to "sleep", consumes pretty much the same as when it is on, and in case it wasn't clear, I hate any kind of waste. I have all TV-related boxes on the same extension, so switching on the wall switches them all off in one go.
    - I don't think leaving the box on will help. Computers, if anything, benefit from a full reboot every now and then ("have you tried to switch it off and on again?"), to clear memory leaks, fragmentation and all kinds of issues. And besides, I've been switching it off every night for years, why would it be a problem now?? The HDCP handshake happens at the end of the boot process, and then it doesn't seem to happen again while the box is on.





  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭
    edited 30 September 2020, 2:37PM
    sbucc said:
    I found a thread that pretty much describes my situation, and confirms my diagnosis:
    They must have done it again (dropping backwards compatibility for HDMI or HDCP).
    This is plain forced obsolescence (or programmer error), and I don't have any hope that they will ever fix it...

    I couldn't agree more: if it was working before then it should still be working now. And no, the firmware upgrade doesn't necessarily have to be the reason for the error, but I suspect it is.
    The box is old, either 2012 or 2015, but as long as it works, no reason to throw it away, we generate enough waste as it is. Before I admit that it has actually developed a hardware fault, I want to try everything, and all the symptoms point to a software issue, not hardware.
    This box is old but it has some nice features: pause, players, and DVB-T2 tuner, all things that my ancient TV lacks. I really want to get my HDMI back, but to be honest I'd rather use it via SCART than throw it away.
    The situation described in the thread is similar to yours, but it is dated March, 2015.
    Youview haven't dropped backwards compatibility for HDCP.  It is embedded in the Freeview HD channel transmissions and the version used is determined by the broadcaster.
    What happens if you try to play an SD channel on your box via HDMI?
    I agree with you that there is no need to throw your box away as long as it works. Our box is from March 2013 and I have a Topfield that has been in use since 2006. Last year I replaced our Sony CRT TV that we bought in 2000.
  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 327 ✭✭
    If this were the case, then this and the TalkTalk forum would be awash with complaints.
    I think your situation is unique, which does not help you, or us help you, solve the issue.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,118 ✭✭✭
    From switched right off, I believe the boxes boot at 576i, and then attempt to go to the user-selected resolution.

    HDCP stands for High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection; the HD isn’t High Definition, and even DVDs at 576i have it, so the HDCP check can take place at this resolution, normally 1024 * 576.

    640 * 480 is an early VGA, 4:3 resolution, which I would not think the YouView box would put out.

    Though ICBW....
    8 years in, and still a Johnny-come-lately with ten people getting the badge before me!
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭
    Hi @Roy
    Do any of the Freeview SD channels have HDCP?
  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 327 ✭✭
    My 372T box has minimum of 720p on HDMI setting. As the 360T is the equivalent without recording, I'd have thought it would be the same.
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    Clearly there are a lot more resolutions available over the HDMI connection than those displayed in the settings (720p, 1080i, 1080p), and my TV and the youview box negotiate 640x480. I agree it is strange, why not 576i? Who knows... Anyway, here are some screenshots of my box booting, and the error message, they appear in this order:
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    edited 30 September 2020, 9:44PM
    Over HDMI, HD channels show the YVM607 error and no video; SD channels and players are displayed at 640x480 without audio. Over SCART, everything is shown at 576i with audio.

  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    Actually, player programs are a mixed bag over HDMI: I tried a couple on all4 and I got YVM607, and a couple on BBC iPlayer and no error. No audio in any case. Weirder and weirder...

  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 327 ✭✭
    Have you checked your TV has the latest firmware? It appears not to have been updated since 2009, but might be worth checking.
    https://www.sharp.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/gb/hs.xsl/-/html/download-centre.htm?p=&q=LC-32D65E&lang=en&cat=0

  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,118 ✭✭✭
    edited 1 October 2020, 8:20AM
    jonesh said:
    Hi @Roy
    Do any of the Freeview SD channels have HDCP?
    @jonesh

    Wow, this started a trip down memory lane, and reminded me why dealing with YouView can be so unsatisfactory 😛

    @Piers, in 2015, said that once HDCP is invoked, YouView leave it on, as many TVs can’t cope with it going on and off.

    So whether or not Freeview SD channels ‘have HDCP’ depends on the history of usage of the box; if you watched any HD since the box was last rebooted, then they do (or at least, YouView enforces HDCP as a hangover from the previous HD usage). But if you haven’t, they don’t.

    So it should be possible for @sbucc to switch to an SD channel, give his box the 8-second soft reset, and after that, see that channel OK.

    Though somebody said they tried it back then, and it didn’t work.

    And of course, YouView rewrote everything in 2016, so maybe the above doesn’t apply any more anyway.

    But the context, back in 2015, was making copies of recorded programmes; in today’s context, it’s actually using the box at all, so sticking to SD wouldn’t really be practical, except as a test of what’s going on.
    8 years in, and still a Johnny-come-lately with ten people getting the badge before me!
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,118 ✭✭✭
    edited 1 October 2020, 8:41AM
    sbucc said:
    Actually, player programs are a mixed bag over HDMI: I tried a couple on all4 and I got YVM607, and a couple on BBC iPlayer and no error. No audio in any case. Weirder and weirder...

    sbucc said:
    Over HDMI, HD channels show the YVM607 error and no video; SD channels and players are displayed at 640x480 without audio. Over SCART, everything is shown at 576i with audio.

    60Hz is weird too.

    I think your HDMI is fritzed. But I could be wrong.

    It’s a nice judgement as to whether leaving a box on all the time is gentler than switching it off every night; on a Humax T10x0, it would be no contest that you should leave it on.

    You might have said above (it’s a long thread!) but have you Factory Reset it?

    Have you tried it at a friend’s house (suitably PPE’ed of course) where there is an up to date TV? If it works on that, your theory about HDCP versions may have legs; if not, it points toward a possible hardware failure.

    Either way, a brand new one off eBay can be had for £30.
    8 years in, and still a Johnny-come-lately with ten people getting the badge before me!
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    My TV has the latest firmware 2.32, but the date is older than the one in the link you posted, so I've downloaded it and I'm probably going to try to reflash. Will report if I decide to take the risk.

    @Roy , I tried your suggestion:
    > So it should be possible for @sbucc to switch to an SD channel, give his box the 8-second soft reset, and after that, see that channel OK.

    without success, still 640x480. I even tried the trick while on SCART, then switched to HDMI, and still no joy.

    > And of course, YouView rewrote everything in 2016,

    Aaaargh, don't let me think about that update! The box got like 10x slower (ok, maybe 5x), and they removed so many useful features! They slowly re-added most features over the next years, but it took ages, the speed remains atrocious, and the players crash regularly.
    I wish I could go back to before it, but all the players would probably be too old to work now...
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    edited 1 October 2020, 10:30AM
    @Stevef_fr8ys , I reflashed the TV, and despite the different date on the website is was the exact same version (probably one is build date, the other upload date). Unsurprisingly, no change, still the blasted 640x480.
    I give up, I'll stay with SCART until I buy a new TV...
    Thank you everyone for the help!
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    jonesh said:
    Hi @Roy
    Do any of the Freeview SD channels have HDCP?
    @jonesh

    Wow, this started a trip down memory lane, and reminded me why dealing with YouView can be so unsatisfactory 😛

    @Piers, in 2015, said that once HDCP is invoked, YouView leave it on, as many TVs can’t cope with it going on and off.

    So whether or not Freeview SD channels ‘have HDCP’ depends on the history of usage of the box; if you watched any HD since the box was last rebooted, then they do (or at least, YouView enforces HDCP as a hangover from the previous HD usage). But if you haven’t, they don’t.

    So it should be possible for @sbucc to switch to an SD channel, give his box the 8-second soft reset, and after that, see that channel OK.

    Though somebody said they tried it back then, and it didn’t work.

    And of course, YouView rewrote everything in 2016, so maybe the above doesn’t apply any more anyway.

    But the context, back in 2015, was making copies of recorded programmes; in today’s context, it’s actually using the box at all, so sticking to SD wouldn’t really be practical, except as a test of what’s going on.
    Thank you for the informative reply @Roy.
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    - yep, several factory resets, soft-resets, maintenance menu resets and "reinstall from internet"...
    - Yes, I really have to test on a new TV, I'll see what I can do (having to untangle the power supply from behind the furniture is a major turn-off though...)
    - I'm curious: why would a Humax need to stay on 24/7?
    - 640x480 @ 60Hz is actually the most common VGA resolution/refresh rate, default for Windows (according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Graphics_Array). Maybe it's the default fallback if the devices can't negotiate anything else?


  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    New hypothesis: it's EDID giving problems, not HDCP. That's the standard for communicating device capabilities, and it reinforces the hardware fault theory: if one of the pins responsible for EDID communication have somehow become disconnected (I guess the I2C pins 15-17), the box can't talk to the TV to negotiate a resolution, but it can still transmit video at the fallback resolution (and [email protected] is the standard VGA, the fallback for computers).
    After the connection is established at low resolution, it's time to negotiate HDCP, and that one will fail too if the I2C bus is broken.
    The contacts in the socket look fine, but solder joints on the PCB can fail (anyone remember the "dead" Nvidia GPUs in laptops several (10? 15?) years ago?)

    Now I really have to check on a new TV...

  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,118 ✭✭✭
    edited 1 October 2020, 8:15PM
    sbucc said:
    - yep, several factory resets, soft-resets, maintenance menu resets and "reinstall from internet"...
    - Yes, I really have to test on a new TV, I'll see what I can do (having to untangle the power supply from behind the furniture is a major turn-off though...)
    - I'm curious: why would a Humax need to stay on 24/7?
    - 640x480 @ 60Hz is actually the most common VGA resolution/refresh rate, default for Windows (according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Graphics_Array). Maybe it's the default fallback if the devices can't negotiate anything else?


    Re 24/7, all my kit stays on, at least in standby, all the time. I’m not going to go running round all the power sockets, switching stuff off every night, let alone switching the items off one by one, if it can even be done, although that would be gentler.

    And I am consoling myself with the thought that the YouView boxes will update the moment they can, and BT won’t back off my 320 Mbps because the router isn’t responding, and I won’t have to get up at 6 am to put the heating on, and I just have to press a button on the remote to get the bedroom TV on in the morning, instead of padding across the cold room (or what would be the cold room if I didn’t go and put the heating on). And when I say ‘OK BooBoo, Kitchen on’, it doesn’t stay dark and silent down there, but rather the lights come on and the Nest Hub starts playing BBC Radio 4....
    8 years in, and still a Johnny-come-lately with ten people getting the badge before me!
  • sbuccsbucc Member Posts: 17
    edited 2 October 2020, 10:20AM
    update: Tested the box on a new(ish) Samsung TV, still got 640x480. I think that pretty much confirms the hardware failure on the connector, on one of the I2C pins. Knowing me, sooner or later I'll open the box and (try to) resolder it, to prove it conclusively, but not now.
    Thanks everyone for helping, and sorry if I posted in the wrong thread, I should've started my own.
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭
    Use SCART for the time being. The lower resolution isn't too bad.
    I've been trying to find a low resolution mirror, but without success :'(.
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