Text button

2

Comments

  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    edited 20 November 2020, 11:25PM
    @Visionman

    OK, let’s see who has what:-

    On my side, the YouView Core Technical Specification 1.0, with 91 references to MHEG or MHEG-IC spread evenly over its 229 pages.

    On your side, ‘YouView has never been compatible with MHEG, or MHEG-IC (IC stands for internet channels), but I did already know the text service CAN be accessed via the radio channels, but don't know why or how’

    I take it that you do agree the text service from the radio channels is MHEG? Otherwise, you wouldn’t need to be puzzled by it.

    Though even if it wasn’t, I would be puzzled how anyone could ever build a YouView box from a spec so dripping with MHEG, and citing necessary D-Book compliance with MHEG, and it not have MHEG?

    And even if YouView boxes were actually built from an unpublished later spec that dropped MHEG, just how YouView would manage to fillet MHEG out of that revised spec, and moreover stay D-Book compliant?

    That would be like extracting the ‘Blackpool’ from sticks of rock and still leaving the sticks intact. And moreover, doing it in a world where anonymous rock was forbidden by law 😛
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭
    edited 20 November 2020, 11:39PM
    YouView doesn't comply with D-Book Roy and I know you already know that because of previous conversations involving  you, myself and Piers. 
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    Visionman said:
    YouView doesn't comply with D-Book Roy and I know you already know that because of previous conversations involving  you, myself and Piers. 
    @Visionman

    Wow, you have more twists and turns than an Alpine road 😛

    You likewise know that that discussion was confined to stretchyvision considerations, not the fundamental adherences to D-Book needed above.

    But can you provide any backup whatsoever to your currently totally unsupported assertions about MHEG? 

    Assertions that lead you yourself into puzzlement when you can see MHEG being supported by the YouView box, a puzzlement that would only affect those who have fallen into the same misapprehensions that you have here.

    (I think we can safely ignore @kodlkid here, who can’t possibly know anything about it, and is just being the online equivalent of those who used to shout ‘fight, fight, fight’ in the school playground).
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 November 2020, 1:59PM
    Visionman said:
    @Visionman

    Yes, I do. And my God, revisited, that thread is a mess, with duplicate postings, misattributions, and the like. I think it must have got mangled in the transfer from Not Satisfactory, with every edit spawning a separate posting, or some such.

    (@Sarah, you should take a look, I think; though whether it can be rescued, and whether the effort would be worth it, I will leave up to you).

    As for VuTV:-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VuTV

    VuTV was an IPTV Pay TV service available via "Channel 238", with Subscription TV channels available to subscribers with a broadband connected Freeview box. It was first demonstrated at the International Broadcasting Convention in September 2013 and was launched on 28 November 2013. The service closed after almost two years on 22 October 2015.[1]


    VuTV utilised the MHEG-5 international standard for interactive television services as specified in the D-Book published by the Digital TV Group. Specifically, it relied on the MHEG Interaction Channel (MHEG-IC) for the delivery of applications, data and video content via IP. The video streams were encoded using H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, audio was encoded using Advanced Audio Coding and these were delivered encapsulated in an MPEG transport stream. Given the premium nature of the content, all channels were encrypted.

    My inadequate researches seem to reveal that MHEG is now MHEG-5, and that MHEG-IC is an extension of MHEG-5 that YouView boxes have the necessary hardware for, but not the required software support. 

    Perhaps this is the source of your confusion @Visionman - you are equating MHEG-5 with MHEG-IC, and because the boxes do not have the latter, you are erroneously concluding that they do not have the former?

    Because the issue with VuTV on YouView, throughout the thread you quote, is MHEG-IC, not MHEG-5.

    IC, but do you see?

    Though while VuTV is long gone, similar services, like VisionTV, 264, and Channelbox, 271, are alive and well on Freeview. But not on YouView, though On Demand 365, on 265, works. Doesn’t need MHEG-IC, presumably.....
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 November 2020, 2:41PM
    MHEG-IC is an Arqiva driven service but its take up has been, was awful and so is slowly winding down. Dead already. Its a **** format anyway, thats why YouView was never interested in it.

    Please remember that YouView retail, even though small in number (somewhere around the 300,000 mark), is still the number 1 leading retail PVR in the UK. But if you wish to question that then please prove it. But I'll tell you now no other platform or manufacturer comes close to those figures. But there are market force reasons for that that are beyond the manufacturers control. Not that there are many now.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭
    Point of note - YouView is compatible with MHEG5. Confused.com? No need to be as its format is completely different and has slid into a format YouView has been using for years. Yeah, talk about advanced thinking. It has its faults for sure, but what box doesn't?

    I like my box, Period. BTW, on other fora, the AURA's getting slaughtered, but to me it seems to be unfair criticism as its a very good, very quick and reliable PVR. Unfortunately some were hoping for bells and whistles that were cutting edge which didn't happen and nor would they ever.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • westonewestone Member Posts: 18
    edited 21 November 2020, 3:39PM
    On the issue of cutting edge, did YouView ever sort out the hide channels facility that they promised many moons ago?
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 November 2020, 5:08PM
    westone said:
    On the issue of cutting edge, did YouView ever sort out the hide channels facility that they promised many moons ago?

     Yes. Press Guide then the yellow button. That will then take you into hide channels mode.

    You can also hide entire categories as well.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    Visionman said:
    MHEG-IC is an Arqiva driven service but its take up has been, was awful and so is slowly winding down. Dead already. Its a **** format anyway, thats why YouView was never interested in it.

    Please remember that YouView retail, even though small in number (somewhere around the 300,000 mark), is still the number 1 leading retail PVR in the UK. But if you wish to question that then please prove it. But I'll tell you now no other platform or manufacturer comes close to those figures. But there are market force reasons for that that are beyond the manufacturers control. Not that there are many now.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 November 2020, 5:33PM
    Visionman said:
    westone said:
    On the issue of cutting edge, did YouView ever sort out the hide channels facility that they promised many moons ago?

     Yes. Press Guide then the yellow button. That will then take you into hide channels mode.

    You can also hide entire categories as well.

    A YouView box with proper hidden channels would be a box that behaved in all respects as if those channels did not exist.

    It should be very easy to do, technically, as YouView already have this functionality for the Adult channels. Though I expect it is a commercial hot potato.

    But notwithstanding that,  I do not regard hiding channels just in the EPG as any form of ‘sorting out’ of this issue.
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭
    Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview? I can't remember.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 November 2020, 5:50PM
    Roy said:
    Visionman said:
    westone said:
    On the issue of cutting edge, did YouView ever sort out the hide channels facility that they promised many moons ago?

     Yes. Press Guide then the yellow button. That will then take you into hide channels mode.

    You can also hide entire categories as well.

    But notwithstanding that,  I do not regard hiding channels just in the EPG as any form of ‘sorting out’ of this issue.

    You don't regard YouView in anything period Roy.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    jonesh said:
    Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview? I can't remember.
    Choose channel 700. Press Text. Bingo!
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    Visionman said:
    Roy said:
    Visionman said:
    westone said:
    On the issue of cutting edge, did YouView ever sort out the hide channels facility that they promised many moons ago?

     Yes. Press Guide then the yellow button. That will then take you into hide channels mode.

    You can also hide entire categories as well.

    But notwithstanding that,  I do not regard hiding channels just in the EPG as any form of ‘sorting out’ of this issue.

    You don't regard YouView in anything period Roy.
    Not true. I’m a big fan of their MHEG implementation.
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    jonesh said:
    Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview? I can't remember.
    Choose channel 700. Press Text. Bingo!
    Thanks @Roy, but it's not Bingo. It's news, sport, travel and weather  :p.
    :persevere: Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview TV channels?
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    jonesh said:
    Roy said:
    jonesh said:
    Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview? I can't remember.
    Choose channel 700. Press Text. Bingo!
    Thanks @Roy, but it's not Bingo. It's news, sport, travel and weather  :p.
    :persevere: Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview TV channels?
    It’s text, it’s from the BBC. 

    Care to redefine what you are looking for, if that doesn’t fit the bill?
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    jonesh said:
    Roy said:
    jonesh said:
    Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview? I can't remember.
    Choose channel 700. Press Text. Bingo!
    Thanks @Roy, but it's not Bingo. It's news, sport, travel and weather  :p.
    :persevere: Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview TV channels?
    It’s text, it’s from the BBC. 

    Care to redefine what you are looking for, if that doesn’t fit the bill?
    I did refine what I am looking for @Roy :) .
    Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview TV channels?
  • westonewestone Member Posts: 18
    edited 21 November 2020, 11:02PM
    Visionman said:
    westone said:
    On the issue of cutting edge, did YouView ever sort out the hide channels facility that they promised many moons ago?

     Yes. Press Guide then the yellow button. That will then take you into hide channels mode.

    You can also hide entire categories as well.
    Not the same as they promised when they moved to pictures and said it was a new generation with the hide channels that we had before restored 'shortly'. You have a very short memory Visionman. It was the beginning of a slow death for YouView.
  • westonewestone Member Posts: 18
    Visionman said:
    Please remember that YouView retail, even though small in number (somewhere around the 300,000 mark), is still the number 1 leading retail PVR in the UK.
    WOW, what are the sales figures like at the moment then?
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    jonesh said:
    Roy said:
    jonesh said:
    Roy said:
    jonesh said:
    Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview? I can't remember.
    Choose channel 700. Press Text. Bingo!
    Thanks @Roy, but it's not Bingo. It's news, sport, travel and weather  :p.
    :persevere: Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview TV channels?
    It’s text, it’s from the BBC. 

    Care to redefine what you are looking for, if that doesn’t fit the bill?
    I did refine what I am looking for @Roy :) .
    Has BBC text ever been available on the the text button on Youview TV channels?
    Apologies, so you did.
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    edited 22 November 2020, 11:05AM
    @jonesh

    I’ve given this some further thought and investigation (and more since, prompted by @Anaglypta))

    We know the Text button is mapped to the DirectFB key DIKS_TEXT, and further to the MHEG UserInput value Text(104).

    So it’s then a case of what the MHEG engine does with that.

    Which, as we know, varies from TV channels (absolutely nothing happens, not even a ‘Not Available’) to Radio channels (gives Text).

    On our Samsung the equivalent(?) remote button, TTX/MIX, still gives Text on BBC SD TV channels and Text on BBC Radio channels.

    Which sends me back to deduction; would YouView really have specified a Text button on the remote that only worked on Radio channels?

    And not documented that? In fact the Text button is so undocumented, in any YouView user guide I have looked at, that it must have been thought its purpose was obvious, as it still is on the Samsung TV.

    And I recall that it used to bring up text, even on TV channels, on YouView, and I think I remember some disappointment being expressed on here when it stopped.

    Digging back:-

    It was originally there, though people kept thinking they had lost it, but on the SD BBC channels only (and Sky News, I think), but not the HD ones. And looking on an SD BBC channel, sometimes after a needed reboot, would reveal it:-
    https://community.youview.com/youview/discussion/5107202/no-text-service-wheres-it-gone

    and then Red Button+ happened in April 2015, and it was really gone. So this was some good amount of time prior to this explanatory post; I guess somebody’s grandparents didn’t get the memo:-
    https://community.youview.com/youview/discussion/comment/18595178/#Comment_18595178

    But the behaviour of the Text button on YouView now differs from the continuing behaviour of the TTX/MIX button on all our Samsung TVs, even the 2019 one.

    So notwithstanding YouView’s decision to cease the function of the Text button when Red Button+ came in, this seems to have been a change for the worse with no clear technical justification for it.
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • AnaglyptaAnaglypta Member, Super User Posts: 842 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    On our Samsung the equivalent(?) remote button, TTX/MIX, gives ’Not Available’ on TV channels and Text on Radio channels.

    But the behaviour of the Text button on YouView now is very close to the current behaviour of the TTX/MIX button on the Samsung TV (in this country at least), which is probably a good thing for consistency.

    The old text service is alive and well on Samsung TV's (or on my 2015 TV at least). The "Not Available" message usually means the TV is busy setting stuff up.
    If you tune to a BBC TV channel (HD/SD doesn't matter) and wait until the "Press Green to view from the start" message appears in the top right of the screen and then press TTX/MIX you'll get the standard text service.


    John.
    "Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." - George S. Patton
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    edited 22 November 2020, 11:11AM
    Anaglypta said:
    Roy said:
    On our Samsung the equivalent(?) remote button, TTX/MIX, gives ’Not Available’ on TV channels and Text on Radio channels.

    But the behaviour of the Text button on YouView now is very close to the current behaviour of the TTX/MIX button on the Samsung TV (in this country at least), which is probably a good thing for consistency.

    The old text service is alive and well on Samsung TV's (or on my 2015 TV at least). The "Not Available" message usually means the TV is busy setting stuff up.
    If you tune to a BBC TV channel (HD/SD doesn't matter) and wait until the "Press Green to view from the start" message appears in the top right of the screen and then press TTX/MIX you'll get the standard text service.


    John.
    So it is! 

    Apart from your most irregular retention then, which we must all unthink, the Memory Hole has been used to present my posting above as it should be, and indeed, as it always was, starting from a few minutes ago 😛
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • joneshjonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭
    Thank you for an informative and detailed response @Roy
    Presumably, if the text button used to work on the TV channels, it could be brought back.
    I hope that they do, but I'm not holding my breath :).
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    jonesh said:
    Thank you for an informative and detailed response @Roy
    Presumably, if the text button used to work on the TV channels, it could be brought back.
    I hope that they do, but I'm not holding my breath :).
    Thanks. The inaccuracies, of which there weren’t any, have been pointed out by @Anaglypta, who has been sent to Room (or possibly Channel) 101 for re-education, and history now reflects the current reality, as of course it has always done 😛

    The situation seems to be that YouView would have us believe that the change from Red Button to Red Button+ ruled out the possibility of the Text button now working as it did before (which may be true for YouView, due to suboptimal something-or-other), although Samsung TVs saw no obstacle there, and continue to provide it perfectly well.

    I don’t know if anyone has ever managed to shame YouView into doing something doable that they have chosen not to do, though...🤭
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭
    westone said
    Not the same as they promised when they moved to pictures and said it was a new generation with the hide channels that we had before restored 'shortly'. You have a very short memory Visionman. It was the beginning of a slow death for YouView.

    Was it? I must have missed that one. I am not hear (deliberate) to defend YouView. But I am here to give my opinion.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • westonewestone Member Posts: 18
    edited 22 November 2020, 11:33PM
    Visionman said:
    westone said
    Not the same as they promised when they moved to pictures and said it was a new generation with the hide channels that we had before restored 'shortly'. You have a very short memory Visionman. It was the beginning of a slow death for YouView.

    Was it? I must have missed that one. I am not hear (deliberate) to defend YouView. But I am here to give my opinion.
    ha ha, same old Visionman.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,227 ✭✭✭
    westone said:
    Visionman said:
    westone said
    Not the same as they promised when they moved to pictures and said it was a new generation with the hide channels that we had before restored 'shortly'. You have a very short memory Visionman. It was the beginning of a slow death for YouView.

    Was it? I must have missed that one. I am not hear (deliberate) to defend YouView. But I am here to give my opinion.
    ha ha, same old Visionnan.
    That’s his grandma.
    ‘Impossible’ problems solved, courtesy of Sherlock Holmes and What’sOn
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭
    Agreed.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
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