Manually add to start/end of recordings

1568101125

Comments

  • Mark James1Mark James1 Member Posts: 37
    edited 7 January 2013, 1:06PM
    Martin1 said:

    Because it's cited as a show that often/repeatedly gets clipped I set a test record for the 20.00-21.00 hrs episode of the dreadful CSI tonight.

    Pleased to say the entire episode recorded, all the way until the end of the various production company credits.

    Has C5 fixed the problem or was tonight a bizarre co-inincidence in which I picked the only on-time episode?

    Thanks Martin. I see that CSI has been mentioned twice there, so not a lot more that can be done about it on this forum.

    Definitely something for those affected to take back to the broadcaster to reinforce what YouView reports to them, but if it works for you then are there also any differences in hardware, signal area, etc?
  • Ian2Ian2 Member Posts: 45
    edited 7 January 2013, 1:17PM
    Ian2 said:

    Can't really believe history is repeating itself. The original UK TiVo was launched in 2000 and it had no padding as it used PDC (programme delivery control) to time start and stop times. No padding would be needed as PDC will ensure you have accurate recordings.

    Well blow me down, missing start and end of recordings. Issues due to incorrect PDC, missed PDC (so recording didn't start), some ITV regions not supporting PDC and some channels not supporting PDC, all a bit of a mess really, just like accurate recording on YouView. When software version 2.5 came out 2001'ish is had padding and missed beginnings and ending became a thing of the past.

    Just been reading back all my correspondence to TiVo in FEBRUARY 2001 (yes nearly 11 years ago) about lack of padding on TiVo on how I (and others) in UK kept on missing beginning and end of recordings. TiVo's initial replies were along the lines "we use PDC & other methods to accurately record, so padding is not necessary, please contact the broadcaster to keep to accurate times...."...Yawn yawn yawn deja vu etc etc

    Sad I know keep emails that far back.

    Then beta testing DECEMBER 2001 V2.5.5 where padding appeared and bingo suddenly part recordings were a thing of the past....and then in 2005 addition of network card and "soft padding" to only pad a programme if it could.

    "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. " Carl Marx.
  • Chris__M1Chris__M1 Member Posts: 136
    edited 7 January 2013, 1:20PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    "But it inescapably moves the box away from the 'simple to use' mentality of YouView and presents people who've never had a PVT before - a big part of the YouView target group - with yet more onscreen messages to understand and approve."

    Rather than present people who've never had a PVR' before, who do not understand about AR (and whose responsibility it is) with truncated recordings?

    My previous PVRs have all been commercial boxes, not "hobbyist" boxes as you describe elsewhere. The one previous to the YouView box was bought in Tescos, for heaven's sake.

    All have had some kind of padding or manual editing of schedule facility. Even with my first PVR, I had no problem understanding how it worked, and what the implications were with regard to programme clashes. The Tesco box is happily recording Channel 5 shows that YouView consistently truncates.
  • sarumbear1sarumbear1 Member Posts: 315
    edited 7 January 2013, 1:23PM
    Ian2 said:

    Can't really believe history is repeating itself. The original UK TiVo was launched in 2000 and it had no padding as it used PDC (programme delivery control) to time start and stop times. No padding would be needed as PDC will ensure you have accurate recordings.

    Well blow me down, missing start and end of recordings. Issues due to incorrect PDC, missed PDC (so recording didn't start), some ITV regions not supporting PDC and some channels not supporting PDC, all a bit of a mess really, just like accurate recording on YouView. When software version 2.5 came out 2001'ish is had padding and missed beginnings and ending became a thing of the past.

    In this case it is more like arrogance. It has been proven that padding is the only option to offer a safety net for the user against broadcasters' mistakes. Everybody who is anybody in PVR world knew that.

    If YouView didn't, they are incapable, if they new they are arrogant. Take your pick.
  • edited 7 January 2013, 1:35PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    Hi Chris

    As I said in the post you replied to, any padding feature needs to be properly thought out and work in the least obtrusive way possible.
  • edited 7 January 2013, 1:36PM
    Martin1 said:

    Because it's cited as a show that often/repeatedly gets clipped I set a test record for the 20.00-21.00 hrs episode of the dreadful CSI tonight.

    Pleased to say the entire episode recorded, all the way until the end of the various production company credits.

    Has C5 fixed the problem or was tonight a bizarre co-inincidence in which I picked the only on-time episode?

    >> if it works for you then are there also any differences in hardware, signal area, etc?

    Something I was hoping could be discovered but the whole thing got rather waylaid by suggestions that I had a magic box....
  • gomezgomez Member Posts: 2,073 ✭✭
    edited 7 January 2013, 1:44PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    As seen for example on the PVR that must not be named ....
  • billmarsbillmars Member Posts: 40
    edited 7 January 2013, 2:45PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    Is this why some of my posts, mentioning 'the PVR that must not be named' have mysteriously disappeared? I wondered why I couldn't find them. Not that it is easy to find anything on this forum!
  • edited 7 January 2013, 2:50PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    Hi bill

    A list of all your posts is here:

    http://community.youview.com/people/b...

    the forum rolls up comments made under posts so that only the most recent two appear. This can make it hard to find posts later on.
  • billmarsbillmars Member Posts: 40
    edited 7 January 2013, 3:07PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    Well not really a list of my posts is it! The structure of this forum is the most unhelpful, user unfriendly, difficult to negotiate,... it goes on and on!
    But this is totally off topic, so no more.
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 507 ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 7:35PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    @Martin

    If by 'complete solution' you mean getting broadcasters to transmit 100% accurate recording data (I'm abbreviating that to ARD) all the time, every time, then this is where we disagree because I think history has proven that will never happen. That doesn't mean YouView can't pursue that outcome, of course, regardless of whether padding is added YV.

    I fail to see how ARD combined with padding causes any 'issues' or how it would confuse users. It can all be done automatically and the important point is that the user would certainly be no worse off than if the box were using ARD alone with no padding.

    Example:

    1. If I want to record BBC1 and ITV1 between 7pm and 8pm padding is added, say 2 minutes at start and 3 minutes after the ARD 'end' signal is received.

    2. If I want to record BBC1 and ITV1 between 7pm and 8pm, and BBC1 and/or ITV1 between 8pm to 9pm, some padding is added to the end of 7-8pm recordings but the ARD 'end' signal is used to determine the 'switch point' between the first and second programme.

    3. If I want to record BBC1 and ITV1 between 7pm and 8pm, and any other channel between 8 - 9pm some padding is added to the end of 7-8pm recordings but the ARD 'end' signal is used to determine the 'switch point' between the first and second programme.

    None of those scenarios requires user intervention, they leave the user no worse off than if the box was to rely just on ARD, it will give the user a complete recording 99.9% of the time, and would in no way prevent YV from getting broadcasters to improve their ARD. Surely that is better than the situation we have at present?
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 507 ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 7:35PM

    Speaking personally, I have never felt the need to set padding on any of my PVR's even if they have included it. Accurate recording works fine apart from the occasion. Using padding adds its own problems I find which is why I never use it.

    Not if it's implemented correctly.
  • edited 7 January 2013, 4:04PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    >> it will give the user a complete recording 99.9% of the time,

    As, based on my experience, does ARD...

    >> and would in no way prevent YV from getting broadcasters to improve their ARD

    My hunch is the second padding is added - and again, I've never argued it shouldn't be - broadcasters will stop caring about the accuracy of their ARD. I think that's the only thing that "history has proven".

    >> the important point is that the user would certainly be no worse off than if the box were using ARD alone with no padding

    IMO the important point is that you now need to explain to the less technical users out there why their padding doesn't actually pad for the entire time they set and why they still sometimes lose a bit of their programme when they set padding so that they wouldn't.

    Because once padding starts being dropped, it's only an illusion of a solution that doesn't really leave the user much (if any) better off.
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 507 ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 7:35PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    >>As, based on my experience, does ARD...

    If ARD worked 99.9% of the time surely we would not be having this discussion

    >>My hunch is the second padding is added - and again, I've never argued it shouldn't be - broadcasters will stop caring about the accuracy of their ARD. I think that's the only thing that "history has proven".

    I doubt that they care either way. Many (probably most) of the channels on Freeview have no investment in YV whatsoever.

    >>IMO the important point is that you now need to explain to the less technical users out there why their padding doesn't actually pad for the entire time they set and why they still sometimes lose a bit of their programme when they set padding so that they wouldn't. Because once padding starts being dropped, it's only an illusion of a solution that doesn't really leave the user much (if any) better off.

    The YV box doesn’t explain to me when a recording gets clipped because of incorrect ARD so why would it need to explain padding? Besides, as I’ve said previously, even if padding is dropped (because of consecutive recordings) the box can revert to ARD. The odds of a recording being clipped with padding and intelligent use of ARD are so incredibly small as to be virtually impossible.
  • edited 7 January 2013, 5:26PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    >> If ARD worked 99.9% of the time surely we would not be having this discussion

    I can only speak on my own experiences and when it comes to TV content I've had just one clipped recording since July.

    BBC Radio 4 Extra used be awful for timekeeping but I don't think they use AR on the radio stations and given overrun times of up to 10 minutes, padding would rarely have helped.

    >> Many (probably most) of the channels on Freeview have no investment in YV whatsoever.

    If you look at the 37 entertainment channels - the ones people are most likely to record from - listed here:

    http://www.youview.com/whats-on/

    22 owned by the big 5 broadcasters who own YouView while through BBC Worldwide's 50% of UKTV, Auntie Beeb also has a stake in 3 more. Plus there's Film 4 and, possibly, BBC Parliament.

    >> The YV box doesn’t explain to me when a recording gets clipped because of incorrect ARD so why would it need to explain padding?

    If someone sets 5 minutes of padding they're going to expect 5 minutes of extra run on their recording. If they're not going to get it someone or something needs to explain why. That'll probably end up being this forum or the YouView help desk.

    If padding is implemented it needs to be simple, easy to understand and provide a consistent user experience so that all users understand what is happening and why.
  • AnaglyptaAnaglypta Member, Super User Posts: 845 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 November 2016, 11:55AM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    TomW

    "I doubt that they care either way. Many (probably most) of the channels on Freeview have no investment in YV whatsoever."

    Some broadcasters DO care. This from the BBC.....

    The BBC changes schedules much more frequently than other broadcasters, and frequently at short notice. If schedule information isn't kept up to date then desirable technologies such as DVRs won't work properly, leading to audience frustration that is likely to be targetted at the BBC

    And you can read the whole blog here

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/eca/...
    "Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." - George S. Patton
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 507 ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 7:35PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    @Anaglypta

    BBC may care, they have a vested interest, there are plenty of broadcasts who may not. Anyway we're veering slightly off topic here. The point is there is a solution to this problem that does not require 100% accurate recording data. It's been used in other PVRs for years and if implemented correctly it will work 99.9% of the time which in reality is what people really care about.
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 507 ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 7:35PM
    Mike3 said:

    Martin 19 hours ago

    And yet since getting my box in July I've had exactly one clipped recording that I can recall and every week I record a dozen or more shows across a range of broadcasters and channels.

    confused Martin I thought you said you had only ever had one clipped recording.

    so why post this today in your defence of padding

    EDIT: In fact here's one post from me from four months ago:

    "So yes, padding would be nice, especially as a lot of shows on BBC Radio 4 Extra run late so I miss the end, but only if they don't diminish the service or introduce new problems"

    >> If someone sets 5 minutes of padding they're going to expect 5 minutes of extra run on their recording. If they're not going to get it someone or something needs to explain why. That'll probably end up being this forum or the YouView help desk. If padding is implemented it needs to be simple, easy to understand and provide a consistent user experience so that all users understand what is happening and why.

    What people are going to expect is that their programme is recorded in it’s entirety. Padding could be made mandatory or made the default setting and that could be done in the background via a software update so the user would not have to do anything or change anything. Nothing. Nada. If the user doesn’t get clipped recordings – which they won’t if it’s implemented correctly – then it would all be quite seamless and invisible from the users point of view.
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 507 ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 7:35PM
    traces said:

    Accurate Recording is an ideal solution for PVR start/stop timings. It reduces conflicts and unnecessary padding.

    It'll be even better when the process has been fine tuned, and it works perfectly every time.

    Padding need not cause conflicts if it's used intelligently in combination with Accurate Recording.
  • SoniclifeSoniclife Member Posts: 23
    edited 8 January 2013, 9:51AM
    Martin1 said:

    Because it's cited as a show that often/repeatedly gets clipped I set a test record for the 20.00-21.00 hrs episode of the dreadful CSI tonight.

    Pleased to say the entire episode recorded, all the way until the end of the various production company credits.

    Has C5 fixed the problem or was tonight a bizarre co-inincidence in which I picked the only on-time episode?

    @Martin

    For the record all your stated assumptions about my assumptions are wrong.

    My post was meant to be a humorous nudge for you to provide a more complete answer. My assumption that you would see this as a humorous request for clarity is the assumption I got wrong, very wrong as it happens.
  • Chris__M1Chris__M1 Member Posts: 136
    edited 8 January 2013, 10:42AM
    Martin1 said:

    Because it's cited as a show that often/repeatedly gets clipped I set a test record for the 20.00-21.00 hrs episode of the dreadful CSI tonight.

    Pleased to say the entire episode recorded, all the way until the end of the various production company credits.

    Has C5 fixed the problem or was tonight a bizarre co-inincidence in which I picked the only on-time episode?

    One slot on 5USA that has been consistantly bad is at 6pm, which has shown both NCIS and CSI in the recent past. The slot is scheduled from 6pm to 6:55pm, when Inside Hollywood begins. In fact, Inside Hollywood usually starts at 6:58pm, which means the last couple of minutes of the 6pm show is missed.

    I am not currently recording that slot, as the NCIS being shown are old repeats, so I don't know if that is still happening. But it used to be a reliable example of the problem.
  • SoniclifeSoniclife Member Posts: 23
    edited 8 January 2013, 11:19AM
    Martin1 said:

    Because it's cited as a show that often/repeatedly gets clipped I set a test record for the 20.00-21.00 hrs episode of the dreadful CSI tonight.

    Pleased to say the entire episode recorded, all the way until the end of the various production company credits.

    Has C5 fixed the problem or was tonight a bizarre co-inincidence in which I picked the only on-time episode?

    I have set my YV and toppy to record this episode today as a test, it might be worthwhile if others do the same and see what the pattern of success is. It will probably work fine today though, it always does when you test things.
  • Chris__M1Chris__M1 Member Posts: 136
    edited 8 January 2013, 9:07PM
    Martin1 said:

    Because it's cited as a show that often/repeatedly gets clipped I set a test record for the 20.00-21.00 hrs episode of the dreadful CSI tonight.

    Pleased to say the entire episode recorded, all the way until the end of the various production company credits.

    Has C5 fixed the problem or was tonight a bizarre co-inincidence in which I picked the only on-time episode?

    Just to confirm, 5USA is still doing this. The NCIS episode was missing the end of the show. The "Inside Hollywood" that followed, scheduled as 5 minutes, actually contained the last 3:45 minutes of action from NCIS, plus 30 seconds of credits.

    This couldn't have been a better example. There was a subplot throughout that NCIS series, that came together in the last two episodes, of which this was the second. Without giving spoilers (it is an old series, but someone may not have seen it yet), if I had missed the last 3:45 minutes, I would have been extremely unhappy, as it contained the climax for the whole series.
  • Andrew MarlowAndrew Marlow Member Posts: 65
    edited 8 January 2013, 9:21PM

    Hard padding please and option to add padding manually.

    Until this update arrives I will be using my TopUpTV DVB recorder, which has the option.

    I am also going for this approach. It is annoying because it is fiddly to set up recording on a DVD-PVR this way, plus you have to go through the hassle of adding a title manually. But at least it is recorded reliably. You cannot rely on YV to do it.
  • Andrew MarlowAndrew Marlow Member Posts: 65
    edited 8 January 2013, 9:27PM

    Speaking personally, I have never felt the need to set padding on any of my PVR's even if they have included it. Accurate recording works fine apart from the occasion. Using padding adds its own problems I find which is why I never use it.

    "Using padding adds its own problems.." - huh? I thought that other PVRs did this and there was no problem. Please explain how the padding that is automatically used in some PVRs causes problems. You'll have to be specific with regard to the make and model of PVR.
  • SoniclifeSoniclife Member Posts: 23
    edited 8 January 2013, 9:49PM
    Martin1 said:

    Because it's cited as a show that often/repeatedly gets clipped I set a test record for the 20.00-21.00 hrs episode of the dreadful CSI tonight.

    Pleased to say the entire episode recorded, all the way until the end of the various production company credits.

    Has C5 fixed the problem or was tonight a bizarre co-inincidence in which I picked the only on-time episode?

    My YV box lost the final few mins of the NCIS test, the toppy with +3 padding got all of it plus about 1 min after the credits.
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 507 ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 7:35PM
    Martin1 said:

    Because it's cited as a show that often/repeatedly gets clipped I set a test record for the 20.00-21.00 hrs episode of the dreadful CSI tonight.

    Pleased to say the entire episode recorded, all the way until the end of the various production company credits.

    Has C5 fixed the problem or was tonight a bizarre co-inincidence in which I picked the only on-time episode?

    Same here although I got a couple of minutes more on the Toppy because I have padding set to +6.
  • Mike3Mike3 Member Posts: 99
    edited 16 May 2014, 7:28PM
    traces said:

    Accurate Recording is an ideal solution for PVR start/stop timings. It reduces conflicts and unnecessary padding.

    It'll be even better when the process has been fine tuned, and it works perfectly every time.

    IMO Accurate Recording Data will never be 100% accurate while there is human input required simply because "we are only human"
  • sarumbear1sarumbear1 Member Posts: 315
    edited 8 January 2013, 11:47PM
    Mike said: "Accurate Recording Data will never be 100% accurate "

    At its present implementation you are correct but why input a timetable twice?

    It seems broadcasters are now entering the in and out times of the programs once for the play-out server and then for the AR? Why don't they write a piece of software that reads the playlist time codes and sends matching AR codes? That way nothing can be out of time. The software will send the end of program data when the program really ends, however late or early that may be.

    It beggars belief!
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 507 ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 7:35PM
    Another clipped programme tonight. BBC Look East local news was missing the beginning. Sigh :-/
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