Make ISP 'branding' optional on retail boxes

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Comments

  • Simon7Simon7 Member Posts: 49
    edited 23 February 2013, 12:10AM
    Visionman said:

    aisha 2 minutes ago
    You may be right, Madcotto. I'm glad I learned about the problem in time to cancel, thanks to Martin and Simon.
    -----------------------------------

    aisha, its not a problem. Its a personal opinion. One I agree with btw, but its still just a personal opinion. And a personal option too, for each to take or not. And I see yours is not. lol.

    I will be. Which is just my personal preference.

    This is the second time Martin has started a thread on this subject, and rightly so, IMO, as I agree with him. But there are *many* others across various internet forums, who haven't even mentioned it. And I can see why too. As its just a personal opinion. And just a personal choice, too.

    A lot of people haven't got much capacity for thought too ;)
  • gomezgomez Member Posts: 2,073 ✭✭
    edited 6 March 2017, 9:48PM
    Isn't unauthorised inteference with someone's equipment a serious criminal offence?
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 23 February 2013, 7:41AM
    Visionman said:

    aisha 2 minutes ago
    You may be right, Madcotto. I'm glad I learned about the problem in time to cancel, thanks to Martin and Simon.
    -----------------------------------

    aisha, its not a problem. Its a personal opinion. One I agree with btw, but its still just a personal opinion. And a personal option too, for each to take or not. And I see yours is not. lol.

    I will be. Which is just my personal preference.

    This is the second time Martin has started a thread on this subject, and rightly so, IMO, as I agree with him. But there are *many* others across various internet forums, who haven't even mentioned it. And I can see why too. As its just a personal opinion. And just a personal choice, too.

    Visionman, I do think it's a problem. You may not see it as a problem, but that's just your opinion.

    I'm not at all surprised that it hasn't been mentioned much, because it isn't known about and doesn't affect most users. Most BT and TT users of YouView will be using boxes that have been given to them by BT/TT. This only directly affects those who have a YouView box not provided by the ISP.

    Although it only directly affects a minority of youview users, there's a principle at stake, and the principle is, I hope, important to many people.

    So please, don't tell me it's not a problem.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,592 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 7:38AM
    gomez said:

    Isn't unauthorised inteference with someone's equipment a serious criminal offence?

    It is. But what's the betting that BT and TT customers have accepted T&Cs that allow their ISPs to do this?

    There was a software company where clause 6 of the T&Cs for one of their products said you were entitled to $50 if you claimed it within an hour of accepting the T&Cs. It was three months before anybody did :-)
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 23 February 2013, 8:39AM
    gomez said:

    Isn't unauthorised inteference with someone's equipment a serious criminal offence?

    I had a good long look at BT's T&C last night, and I couldn't see anything relevant. And in fact I don't see how it could be included in the T&C without the lawyers objecting.

    My guess (and obviously it's only a guess) is that either they just haven't given any thought to the effect on privately-owned boxes, or else they're relying on being quick to release/cancel anyone who objects. If a user remains with BT's service, once the branding has appeared, BT might have a defence, in that the user could be seen as having given tacit consent to the continued branding.
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 23 February 2013, 12:41PM
    So I followed up my email with a telephone call to BT.

    Once I slogged my way through the menu system to a human, I explained that I was due to have BB activated, without Bt Vision, on Monday, and that I had concerns which might make it necessary to cancel. I explained that I owned a Youview box, and that I had learned from other BT customers who owned Youview boxes that as soon as I connected to BT my box would be branded with BT's logo, and a non-functioning BT player icon would appear on the On-Demand screen.

    The assistant I was speaking to denied that this would happen. We argued about it for a while, with him insisting it was impossible, and me repeating that I'd been told by other customers that that was exactly what had happened with their boxes.

    Since we were getting nowhere, I asked to speak to a supervisor. After another argument about that (reproachfully "you don't trust me...."), I was put through to a woman who did know the score and who confirmed that the box would be branded.

    I tried to explain my objections to this, but she interrupted and said that BT was part of YouView and any ISP who was part of YouView would do the same, and if I wanted to cancel she'd put me through to the cancellation team, so I said yes please.

    So there it is. Apparently BT don't see any problem with this, and don't even feel it's necessary to inform potential customers that if they use a YouView box with BT Broadband it will get branded.

    To me, it's like if you buy a mobile phone, if you don't want an operator's splash screen all over it, you usually have to pay extra for an unlocked sim-free phone. Imagine if your mobile operator then forces a firmware update on to your unlocked, unbranded phone, smearing their ugly splash screen on your new phone. Would that be legal?

    My opinion is -- if it's legal, it shouldn't be.

    Anyway, that's the position. I will stay with O2, and will move my telephone to O2 as well, as an admittedly feeble protest. I'll escalate my intention to buy a better PVR, disconnect the YouView ethernet connection, and relegate it to use as backup.

    Many thanks to Martin and Simon for posting about this problem. It took me some time to cotton on to the issue, but luckily I got it in time to cancel.
  • Simon7Simon7 Member Posts: 49
    edited 23 February 2013, 12:17PM
    PPP QQQ said:

    So I followed up my email with a telephone call to BT.

    Once I slogged my way through the menu system to a human, I explained that I was due to have BB activated, without Bt Vision, on Monday, and that I had concerns which might make it necessary to cancel. I explained that I owned a Youview box, and that I had learned from other BT customers who owned Youview boxes that as soon as I connected to BT my box would be branded with BT's logo, and a non-functioning BT player icon would appear on the On-Demand screen.

    The assistant I was speaking to denied that this would happen. We argued about it for a while, with him insisting it was impossible, and me repeating that I'd been told by other customers that that was exactly what had happened with their boxes.

    Since we were getting nowhere, I asked to speak to a supervisor. After another argument about that (reproachfully "you don't trust me...."), I was put through to a woman who did know the score and who confirmed that the box would be branded.

    I tried to explain my objections to this, but she interrupted and said that BT was part of YouView and any ISP who was part of YouView would do the same, and if I wanted to cancel she'd put me through to the cancellation team, so I said yes please.

    So there it is. Apparently BT don't see any problem with this, and don't even feel it's necessary to inform potential customers that if they use a YouView box with BT Broadband it will get branded.

    To me, it's like if you buy a mobile phone, if you don't want an operator's splash screen all over it, you usually have to pay extra for an unlocked sim-free phone. Imagine if your mobile operator then forces a firmware update on to your unlocked, unbranded phone, smearing their ugly splash screen on your new phone. Would that be legal?

    My opinion is -- if it's legal, it shouldn't be.

    Anyway, that's the position. I will stay with O2, and will move my telephone to O2 as well, as an admittedly feeble protest. I'll escalate my intention to buy a better PVR, disconnect the YouView ethernet connection, and relegate it to use as backup.

    Many thanks to Martin and Simon for posting about this problem. It took me some time to cotton on to the issue, but luckily I got it in time to cancel.

    Good on you. After wading through droids with no qualms about (unwittingly and confidently) lying to you, without understanding what you're asking and *accusing* you of a lack of trust in their lie, you reach someone who half understands your query and is apathetic enough to cut you short and lose you as a potentially long standing customer. Without investigating properly.

    Well that's not the kind of business I want to deal with either.
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 23 February 2013, 12:41PM
    PPP QQQ said:

    So I followed up my email with a telephone call to BT.

    Once I slogged my way through the menu system to a human, I explained that I was due to have BB activated, without Bt Vision, on Monday, and that I had concerns which might make it necessary to cancel. I explained that I owned a Youview box, and that I had learned from other BT customers who owned Youview boxes that as soon as I connected to BT my box would be branded with BT's logo, and a non-functioning BT player icon would appear on the On-Demand screen.

    The assistant I was speaking to denied that this would happen. We argued about it for a while, with him insisting it was impossible, and me repeating that I'd been told by other customers that that was exactly what had happened with their boxes.

    Since we were getting nowhere, I asked to speak to a supervisor. After another argument about that (reproachfully "you don't trust me...."), I was put through to a woman who did know the score and who confirmed that the box would be branded.

    I tried to explain my objections to this, but she interrupted and said that BT was part of YouView and any ISP who was part of YouView would do the same, and if I wanted to cancel she'd put me through to the cancellation team, so I said yes please.

    So there it is. Apparently BT don't see any problem with this, and don't even feel it's necessary to inform potential customers that if they use a YouView box with BT Broadband it will get branded.

    To me, it's like if you buy a mobile phone, if you don't want an operator's splash screen all over it, you usually have to pay extra for an unlocked sim-free phone. Imagine if your mobile operator then forces a firmware update on to your unlocked, unbranded phone, smearing their ugly splash screen on your new phone. Would that be legal?

    My opinion is -- if it's legal, it shouldn't be.

    Anyway, that's the position. I will stay with O2, and will move my telephone to O2 as well, as an admittedly feeble protest. I'll escalate my intention to buy a better PVR, disconnect the YouView ethernet connection, and relegate it to use as backup.

    Many thanks to Martin and Simon for posting about this problem. It took me some time to cotton on to the issue, but luckily I got it in time to cancel.

    I don't think she was apathetic, she just didn't intend to waste time arguing about something that wasn't up for negotiation. Also I don't think the first assistant was lying, I think he genuinely didn't believe BT would brand my box and felt sure I was just mistaken. I found it quite interesting, actually, that the frontline staff apparently don't know about this policy
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭
    edited 26 February 2017, 1:39PM
    Hi aisha,

    Just for info - the BTVision app works on third party boxes on a BT BB landline.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 23 February 2013, 2:13PM
    Visionman - not sure what you mean. The BT Vision app certainly wouldn't have worked on my YouView box, since I would not have been a BT Vision customer.

    This thread is about BT's and TT's branding of YouView boxes which belong to non-BT Vision customers.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 February 2017, 2:05PM
    Aisha, if you have a YouView box on a third-party broadband service, you have no "branding." If you connected to BT broadband, you would get the BT Vision player/menu installed. And you would also get access to the content. If you connected to TalkTalk, you would get their player/menu installed, but would not be able to access any of it except for PPV services with Lovefilm.
  • edited 23 February 2013, 2:25PM
    redchiz said:

    Aisha, if you have a YouView box on a third-party broadband service, you have no "branding." If you connected to BT broadband, you would get the BT Vision player/menu installed. And you would also get access to the content. If you connected to TalkTalk, you would get their player/menu installed, but would not be able to access any of it except for PPV services with Lovefilm.

    >> And you would also get access to the content.

    You have to pay separately for that content, the branding appears whether you choose to pay or not. It's therefore an unwelcome intrusion onto people's personal property.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 February 2017, 2:05PM
    Martin, Aisha suggested that a "non-functioning" BT Vision player would appear on her box, this isn't quite the case, I was simply trying to clarify the point. It is "non-functioning" on TalkTalk, which I accept is doubly annoying.
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 23 February 2013, 2:35PM
    redchiz said:

    Aisha, if you have a YouView box on a third-party broadband service, you have no "branding." If you connected to BT broadband, you would get the BT Vision player/menu installed. And you would also get access to the content. If you connected to TalkTalk, you would get their player/menu installed, but would not be able to access any of it except for PPV services with Lovefilm.

    redchiz - I think you're mistaken. If I connected to BT broadband, I wouldn't get access to BT's content unless I also subscribed to BT Vision. That's what makes it so unreasonable of BT (in my opinion) to force their logo and icon onto my box against my wishes.
  • edited 26 September 2013, 7:33AM
    >> Aisha suggested that a "non-functioning" BT Vision player

    It is non functioning unless you sign up for either the PAYG or unlimited plan listed here:

    bt.com/player

    If you don't, you can't even access it to browse the content library.

    But it's not just the Player they add, the BT logo gets added to the YouView menu bar between ON DEMAND and SETTINGS.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 February 2017, 2:05PM
    Aisha, sorry for any confusion, by "access" I meant you could get it if you paid for it, much like you have access to NOW TV if you want. The particularly annoying bit with TalkTalk is that you cannot access the player even if you wanted to!

    Martin, as above, you say non-functioning, I'd say non-active, as long as we are clear that the BT player CAN work on a retail box, whereas the TalkTalk player CANNOT. And yes, I know what it does, sorry if that wasn't clear when I referred to "player/menu."
  • edited 23 February 2013, 2:52PM
    redchiz said:

    Aisha, sorry for any confusion, by "access" I meant you could get it if you paid for it, much like you have access to NOW TV if you want. The particularly annoying bit with TalkTalk is that you cannot access the player even if you wanted to!

    Martin, as above, you say non-functioning, I'd say non-active, as long as we are clear that the BT player CAN work on a retail box, whereas the TalkTalk player CANNOT. And yes, I know what it does, sorry if that wasn't clear when I referred to "player/menu."

    Fair do's, I can see the potential for confusion with non-functioning
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 26 February 2017, 1:39PM
    redchiz, thanks for the explanation. Now I understand. That does make a difference, I agree. From BT's point of view, putting their player icon on the On-Demand screen is equivalent to NOW TV, as you say. But they shouldn't put their shortcut on the menu.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 December 2016, 11:05PM
    PPP QQQ said:

    redchiz, thanks for the explanation. Now I understand. That does make a difference, I agree. From BT's point of view, putting their player icon on the On-Demand screen is equivalent to NOW TV, as you say. But they shouldn't put their shortcut on the menu.

    Now for a third party box *that* I agree with. So it would be good to actually include the option of where to have it.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 23 February 2013, 3:53PM
    Visionman - Why should the BT player get a special shortcut at all?

    I understand that BT is a partner, and has invested in YouView, and wants to maximize its customer-recruiting potential. That's fair enough, on boxes it supplies. But it's not right to place this special BT shortcut anywhere on a retail box, without the owner's prior permission.

    In addition to the objections already raised, I do wonder whether these behind-the-scenes special privileges for partners might be one of the reasons non-ISP-linked Youview still has so little content from non-partners, such as Netflix or Blinkbox.

    Maybe such providers don't want to join a platform on which they don't get a shortcut (with its valuable icon advertising their company), while others do.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 February 2017, 2:05PM
    Aisha - getting a bit conspiratorial now, love it!

    The "On Demand" screen gives every impression that it is just crying out to be populated with additional shortcuts/icons, call them what you will. Again, I give you the example of NOW TV, which has exactly the same prominence as all the other player icons. And whose results are incorporated in the Search facility. The only difference is the BT/TalkTalk logo displayed on the in-line menu, as already discussed.

    I would have thought that it was in YouView's collective interest to carry as much content as they can muster. Remember that before deals can be struck that it takes two to tango and it was illuminating for me at least to see that great scupper-er of competition SKY being just about the first external provider to jump on the YouView bandwagon.

    It is admittedly getting a bit tiresome to keep being told effectively to "watch this space," but I remain hopeful that additional content - especially more free-to-air stuff - will enhance the product in coming months.
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 28 February 2017, 2:05PM
    redchiz - Sorry if I sounded conspiratorial but I do wonder why nothing keeps on happening.

    I grant you this business of preferential treatment can't be the only factor. There's no doubt other reasons which I don't know about.
  • PPP QQQPPP QQQ Member Posts: 857
    edited 23 February 2013, 4:57PM
    In comparison, the Pure Avalon Connect is finally in the shops, £299 for 500GB. I had high hopes for this but now that it's here it only has iPlayer and Youtube and internet radio. "...and even more on-demand content in future..."

    Have to wait and see. It does have far better connectivity though.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭
    edited 20 December 2016, 12:56PM
    PPP QQQ said:

    redchiz - Sorry if I sounded conspiratorial but I do wonder why nothing keeps on happening.

    I grant you this business of preferential treatment can't be the only factor. There's no doubt other reasons which I don't know about.

    No need to apologise, I love a good conspiracy theory!
  • CiceroCicero Member Posts: 345
    edited 23 February 2013, 5:06PM
    I don't think anyone's mentioned this but if you're with BT you can for no subscription watch films and you get charged on your telephone bill. Not a great selection and not cheap and not totally relevant to the main discussion but I thought I'd throw it in.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭
    edited 26 February 2017, 1:39PM
    Cicero less than a minute ago
    I don't think anyone's mentioned this but if you're with BT you can for no subscription watch films and you get charged on your telephone bill. Not a great selection and not cheap and not totally relevant to the main discussion but I thought I'd throw it in.
    -----------------

    Thats only on a BTVision box, Cicero, not YouView. Though YV should also make browsing an app's content an option too. Because they may entice one or two new customers, by doing so.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • CiceroCicero Member Posts: 345
    edited 24 February 2013, 12:36AM
    Hi Visionman, you said:-

    "That's only on a BTVision box, Cicero, not YouView. Though YV should also make browsing an app's content an option too. Because they may entice one or two new customers, by doing so."

    I haven't got a BTVision box, only a Humax original triallist box, so I can hardly agree with you really. But I should have mentioned that you have to go to the BT site and formally sign up for the service.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭
    edited 26 February 2017, 1:39PM
    Ah, Apologies. No offence intended. And thanks for the extra info.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • CiceroCicero Member Posts: 345
    edited 24 February 2013, 12:49AM
    No problem, I knew you didn't intend any offence Visionman, and I should have posted the extra info originally.
  • jayangelusjayangelus Member Posts: 7
    edited 4 April 2013, 7:05AM
    Is there anybody on TT able to run a nslookup on the following dns names. I am on BT and have found the following info re DNS redirects per ISP DNS server (as hard coded into the homehub):

    reporting-live.youview.tv
    BTDNS 217.32.28.9 , 217.32.28.32
    NonBT DNS 64.145.75.43, 64.145.75.8

    feeds-live.youview.tv
    BTDNS 217.32.28.16, 217.32.28.25
    NonBT DNS 64.145.75.32, 64.145.75..11

    according to a whois search the ip range 217.32.0.0./12 is BT public internet services and 64.145 range is Akamai Technologies, Inc USA
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