USB connection

1235713

Comments

  • edited 24 April 2013, 8:16PM
    BeatleUK said:

    I have just signed up to BT Broadband so except my YouView box shortly and it's been interesting to read all the comments about it, so thank you. In response to the legality issue Martin keeps banging on about, I have read the act and there is no mention of "once" and also the box allows you to keep recordings forever, it just doesn't allow you to export them via USB as it was not in the specification. I cite here Bob Monkhouse who was acquitted.

    Hi BeatleUK

    As you bring up the legalities, the act doesn't allow long term storage and archiving, which is what I've consistently said in a number of threads.

    Whether the word 'once' is mentioned in the Act or not, the IPO states:

    "This time-shifting exception does not however cover the making of recordings for placing in a collection for repeated viewing or listening"

    The opposite to repeated viewing is viewing once.
  • Lbear1Lbear1 Member Posts: 741
    edited 20 March 2013, 1:16PM
    Martin1 said:

    Hi Peter

    >> it is vital if you want to retain recordings

    Under UK law it's illegal to retain recordings, the law allows you to record solely for timeshifting purpose - watching once at a more convenient time. Storing it for long-term viewing ins't permitted.

    Given YouView is backed by broadcasters It's perhaps unlikely that a feature which breaks their legal protection against unauthorised copies would be added.

    What you fail to mention is that the 1988 Act has been subsequently amended by the Copyrights and Related Rights Regulations 2003 which implemented an EU Directive (2001/29/EC). That amended Section 70 of the Act and introduced a new paragraph 17a to schedule 2 which permits timeshifting:

    "17A.—(1) The making in domestic premises for private and domestic use of a recording of a broadcast solely for the purpose of enabling it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time does not infringe any right conferred by Part 2 in relation to a performance or recording included in the broadcast. "

    The paragraph goes on to outlaw the selling or "dealing" in such recordings however there is no mention of any time limit on how long after broadcast the "convenient time" has to be.
  • drhowellsdrhowells Member Posts: 634 ✭✭
    edited 20 December 2016, 6:21PM
    Martin1 said:

    Hi Peter

    >> it is vital if you want to retain recordings

    Under UK law it's illegal to retain recordings, the law allows you to record solely for timeshifting purpose - watching once at a more convenient time. Storing it for long-term viewing ins't permitted.

    Given YouView is backed by broadcasters It's perhaps unlikely that a feature which breaks their legal protection against unauthorised copies would be added.

    This could go on all day, because you fail to mention Section 75, which prohibits archiving copyright material unless you are a designated body.

    I very much doubt any of us here are qualified to analyse this properly, but the law (put into my own words and interpretation) says that you cannot keep a recording indefinitely. You are allowed to record something to watch later. I am not saying you can only watch it once.

    This is one of those laws that is never properly enforced, unless there is a large scale criminal intent behind it, but it is the law. At the end of the day, Martin is right and every single one of you who are mocking and insulting him are wrong.

    I know other recorders allow you to export recordings to other media and, to be honest, I don't know how they are able to get away with this. Some allow you to record from other inputs, such as camcorders, which would be fine, because they are your recordings, but I know some also allow you to back up recordings.
  • edited 24 April 2013, 8:15PM
    Martin1 said:

    Hi Peter

    >> it is vital if you want to retain recordings

    Under UK law it's illegal to retain recordings, the law allows you to record solely for timeshifting purpose - watching once at a more convenient time. Storing it for long-term viewing ins't permitted.

    Given YouView is backed by broadcasters It's perhaps unlikely that a feature which breaks their legal protection against unauthorised copies would be added.

    >> At the end of the day, Martin is right and every single one of you who are mocking and insulting him are wrong.

    I wouldn't fret too much on my behalf about the mockery or the insults, but I appreciate the sentiment.

    I've only ever mentioned this as a possible reason why archiving recordings isn't a feature on YouView - I.e the broadcasters who own the system have a vested interest in not allowing more than (their understanding of) the law allows.

    I've also said a number of times on other threads that I'd like the feature to be added, if only to prevent loss of recordings when carrying out a reset. It's a feature I'd find useful.

    Sadly that's been lost thanks to a specific poster's determination to twist my comments into a denounciation of anyone asking for the feature. I was even accused of thinking people who want a feature I've said I'd like to see added are 'evil'.

    I guess everyone has to have their little quirks!
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 4:28PM
    BeatleUK said:

    I have just signed up to BT Broadband so except my YouView box shortly and it's been interesting to read all the comments about it, so thank you. In response to the legality issue Martin keeps banging on about, I have read the act and there is no mention of "once" and also the box allows you to keep recordings forever, it just doesn't allow you to export them via USB as it was not in the specification. I cite here Bob Monkhouse who was acquitted.

    Okay noted about Martin.....I read that but I also read the Copyright and Patents Act 1988 as the IPO seemed to be making conjecture. I mentioned Bob Monkhouse, and he was acquitted and not all of his recordings were destroyed and these were back in the video cassette recorder days. But ambiguity in a contract benefits the party who didn't write it, as it doesn't explicity state "once" there is no way to accurately determine that it means "once." Plus there are technologies to prevent storing or keeping these recordings, and with the YouView box you can permanently store recordings on it. The ability to not export content via USB is disappointing but my point was because it was a joint effort by the main terrestrial TV companies and BT, and a few others and given the amount of money and time spent on it then if they didn't want anyone to store their recordings if they had already been watched or if a certain amount of time had elapsed surely they could have done this and would have done this. There seem to be other ways to get content of the box via the SCART, I don't know, but I know that Sky Box Office content is prohibited from being copied onto a device via the SCART connection, so if such a thing does exist then it would have been possible for them to stop that, and if they didn't. I am not advocating recording off the television, but I am simply stating that there is enough reason to believe that it can't be as illegal as you state.
  • edited 24 April 2013, 8:16PM
    BeatleUK said:

    I have just signed up to BT Broadband so except my YouView box shortly and it's been interesting to read all the comments about it, so thank you. In response to the legality issue Martin keeps banging on about, I have read the act and there is no mention of "once" and also the box allows you to keep recordings forever, it just doesn't allow you to export them via USB as it was not in the specification. I cite here Bob Monkhouse who was acquitted.

    As I've said above, and previously:


    I've only ever mentioned this as a possible reason why archiving recordings isn't a feature on YouView - I.e the broadcasters who own the system have a vested interest in not allowing more than (their understanding of) the law allows.

    I've also said a number of times on other threads that I'd like the feature to be added, if only to prevent loss of recordings when carrying out a reset. It's a feature I'd find useful.

    Hence my prior annoyance that you splash land into a months old discussion with a swipe at me, when you don't actually know or reflect what my position or views are.

    Broadcasters secured restrictions on what TV viewers can legally do with any recordings, it's unlikely that a platform they own will allow viewers to export and keep recordings.

    That's the totality of my interest in what the law says on the issue.

  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 5:23PM
    BeatleUK said:

    I have just signed up to BT Broadband so except my YouView box shortly and it's been interesting to read all the comments about it, so thank you. In response to the legality issue Martin keeps banging on about, I have read the act and there is no mention of "once" and also the box allows you to keep recordings forever, it just doesn't allow you to export them via USB as it was not in the specification. I cite here Bob Monkhouse who was acquitted.

    I just wanted to help out and to do my own investigation. It still stands that you can keep recordings ON the YouView box indefinitely, that could be considered a collection and you have yet to comment on that but it's because you are able to do that whatever you think the law says it means that the fact you can't export content via the USB is not because of the law, whether it's the IPO one or the Copyright&Patents Act 1988.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 February 2017, 3:05PM
    I suppose you could permanently store recordings on a YouView box. Until you filled the hard drive. And then what, buy another box?
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 8 January 2015, 4:53PM
    Sorry I don't post on forums much. I forgot to say Hi Martin and Hi redchiz. You could do that, or swap out the hard drive. I'm not sure of the legalities on that. I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet. There are other boxes made by the same manufacturer that do allow exporting content to USB. Would they be allowed to sell the box in this country with that feature if it was a problem. I don't know. Just on one of Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 shows I remember there was a caller on there who had just bought a bag of videos, which someone had bought as blank and recorded programmes from the TV onto them. So this person was saying oh these videos I got off some guy are great, there's loads of stuff on them and this was on BBC Radio 2. Why was that allowed? There was an episode of "The Big Bang Theory" where they had to open up their Tivo box so they could put in a bigger drive so they wouldn't have to delete any episodes of a show they had recorded. Since these are popular TV shows and radio programmes I just feel that either it's not illegal, or someone is looking the other way. Though to avoid any future confusion, and I'm sorry to resurrect certain people to comment on this, or for any hardm caused but here are the parts of the Copyright and Patents Act 1988 I found, make of them what you will.

    70 Recording for purposes of time-shifting.E+W+S+N.I..[F15
    (1)]The making [F16 in domestic premises] for private and domestic use of a recording of a broadcast F17. . . solely for the purpose of enabling it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time does not infringe any copyright in the broadcast F17. . . or in any work included in it. .
    [F18
    (2)Where a copy which would otherwise be an infringing copy is made in accordance with this section but is subsequently dealt with— .
    (a)it shall be treated as an infringing copy for the purposes of that dealing; and .
    (b)if that dealing infringes copyright, it shall be treated as an infringing copy for all subsequent purposes. .
    (3)In subsection (2), “dealt with” means sold or let for hire, offered or exposed for sale or hire or communicated to the public.]

    72 Free public showing or playing of broadcast F20. . . .E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)The showing or playing in public of a broadcast F21. . . to an audience who have not paid for admission to the place where the broadcast F21. . . is to be seen or heard does not infringe any copyright in— .
    [F22
    (a)the broadcast; .
    (b)any sound recording (except so far as it is an excepted sound recording) included in it; or .
    (c)any film included in it.]

    75 Recording for archival purposes.E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)A recording of a broadcast F49. . . of a designated class, or a copy of such a recording, may be made for the purpose of being placed in an archive maintained by a designated body without thereby infringing any copyright in the broadcast F49. . . or in any work included in it. .
    (2)In subsection (1) “designated” means designated for the purposes of this section by order of the Secretary of State, who shall not designate a body unless he is satisfied that it is not established or conducted for profit. .
    (3)An order under this section shall be made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 8:51PM
    BeatleUK said:

    Sorry I don't post on forums much. I forgot to say Hi Martin and Hi redchiz. You could do that, or swap out the hard drive. I'm not sure of the legalities on that. I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet. There are other boxes made by the same manufacturer that do allow exporting content to USB. Would they be allowed to sell the box in this country with that feature if it was a problem. I don't know. Just on one of Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 shows I remember there was a caller on there who had just bought a bag of videos, which someone had bought as blank and recorded programmes from the TV onto them. So this person was saying oh these videos I got off some guy are great, there's loads of stuff on them and this was on BBC Radio 2. Why was that allowed? There was an episode of "The Big Bang Theory" where they had to open up their Tivo box so they could put in a bigger drive so they wouldn't have to delete any episodes of a show they had recorded. Since these are popular TV shows and radio programmes I just feel that either it's not illegal, or someone is looking the other way. Though to avoid any future confusion, and I'm sorry to resurrect certain people to comment on this, or for any hardm caused but here are the parts of the Copyright and Patents Act 1988 I found, make of them what you will.

    70 Recording for purposes of time-shifting.E+W+S+N.I..[F15
    (1)]The making [F16 in domestic premises] for private and domestic use of a recording of a broadcast F17. . . solely for the purpose of enabling it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time does not infringe any copyright in the broadcast F17. . . or in any work included in it. .
    [F18
    (2)Where a copy which would otherwise be an infringing copy is made in accordance with this section but is subsequently dealt with— .
    (a)it shall be treated as an infringing copy for the purposes of that dealing; and .
    (b)if that dealing infringes copyright, it shall be treated as an infringing copy for all subsequent purposes. .
    (3)In subsection (2), “dealt with” means sold or let for hire, offered or exposed for sale or hire or communicated to the public.]

    72 Free public showing or playing of broadcast F20. . . .E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)The showing or playing in public of a broadcast F21. . . to an audience who have not paid for admission to the place where the broadcast F21. . . is to be seen or heard does not infringe any copyright in— .
    [F22
    (a)the broadcast; .
    (b)any sound recording (except so far as it is an excepted sound recording) included in it; or .
    (c)any film included in it.]

    75 Recording for archival purposes.E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)A recording of a broadcast F49. . . of a designated class, or a copy of such a recording, may be made for the purpose of being placed in an archive maintained by a designated body without thereby infringing any copyright in the broadcast F49. . . or in any work included in it. .
    (2)In subsection (1) “designated” means designated for the purposes of this section by order of the Secretary of State, who shall not designate a body unless he is satisfied that it is not established or conducted for profit. .
    (3)An order under this section shall be made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

    I meant harm not hardm
  • edited 20 March 2013, 6:09PM
    BeatleUK said:

    I have just signed up to BT Broadband so except my YouView box shortly and it's been interesting to read all the comments about it, so thank you. In response to the legality issue Martin keeps banging on about, I have read the act and there is no mention of "once" and also the box allows you to keep recordings forever, it just doesn't allow you to export them via USB as it was not in the specification. I cite here Bob Monkhouse who was acquitted.

    Of course you can do it in a technical sense although in reality the finite amount of space on the box means you can only so that with a very small number of shows or you'll end up with no space for more recordings.

    Again, I'd find being able to archive or back up recordings as useful feature. I just don't think it'll be added.

    I'd love to be wrong.
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 8:51PM
    BeatleUK said:

    I have just signed up to BT Broadband so except my YouView box shortly and it's been interesting to read all the comments about it, so thank you. In response to the legality issue Martin keeps banging on about, I have read the act and there is no mention of "once" and also the box allows you to keep recordings forever, it just doesn't allow you to export them via USB as it was not in the specification. I cite here Bob Monkhouse who was acquitted.

    Would be good but 300 hours of TV is like two and a half copies of the entire run of Friends.
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 8:53PM
    BeatleUK said:

    Sorry I don't post on forums much. I forgot to say Hi Martin and Hi redchiz. You could do that, or swap out the hard drive. I'm not sure of the legalities on that. I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet. There are other boxes made by the same manufacturer that do allow exporting content to USB. Would they be allowed to sell the box in this country with that feature if it was a problem. I don't know. Just on one of Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 shows I remember there was a caller on there who had just bought a bag of videos, which someone had bought as blank and recorded programmes from the TV onto them. So this person was saying oh these videos I got off some guy are great, there's loads of stuff on them and this was on BBC Radio 2. Why was that allowed? There was an episode of "The Big Bang Theory" where they had to open up their Tivo box so they could put in a bigger drive so they wouldn't have to delete any episodes of a show they had recorded. Since these are popular TV shows and radio programmes I just feel that either it's not illegal, or someone is looking the other way. Though to avoid any future confusion, and I'm sorry to resurrect certain people to comment on this, or for any hardm caused but here are the parts of the Copyright and Patents Act 1988 I found, make of them what you will.

    70 Recording for purposes of time-shifting.E+W+S+N.I..[F15
    (1)]The making [F16 in domestic premises] for private and domestic use of a recording of a broadcast F17. . . solely for the purpose of enabling it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time does not infringe any copyright in the broadcast F17. . . or in any work included in it. .
    [F18
    (2)Where a copy which would otherwise be an infringing copy is made in accordance with this section but is subsequently dealt with— .
    (a)it shall be treated as an infringing copy for the purposes of that dealing; and .
    (b)if that dealing infringes copyright, it shall be treated as an infringing copy for all subsequent purposes. .
    (3)In subsection (2), “dealt with” means sold or let for hire, offered or exposed for sale or hire or communicated to the public.]

    72 Free public showing or playing of broadcast F20. . . .E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)The showing or playing in public of a broadcast F21. . . to an audience who have not paid for admission to the place where the broadcast F21. . . is to be seen or heard does not infringe any copyright in— .
    [F22
    (a)the broadcast; .
    (b)any sound recording (except so far as it is an excepted sound recording) included in it; or .
    (c)any film included in it.]

    75 Recording for archival purposes.E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)A recording of a broadcast F49. . . of a designated class, or a copy of such a recording, may be made for the purpose of being placed in an archive maintained by a designated body without thereby infringing any copyright in the broadcast F49. . . or in any work included in it. .
    (2)In subsection (1) “designated” means designated for the purposes of this section by order of the Secretary of State, who shall not designate a body unless he is satisfied that it is not established or conducted for profit. .
    (3)An order under this section shall be made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

    I meant harm not hardm. Sorry I'm doing all this posting wrong aren't I. Thanks for your support.
  • edited 8 January 2015, 4:53PM
    BeatleUK said:

    Sorry I don't post on forums much. I forgot to say Hi Martin and Hi redchiz. You could do that, or swap out the hard drive. I'm not sure of the legalities on that. I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet. There are other boxes made by the same manufacturer that do allow exporting content to USB. Would they be allowed to sell the box in this country with that feature if it was a problem. I don't know. Just on one of Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 shows I remember there was a caller on there who had just bought a bag of videos, which someone had bought as blank and recorded programmes from the TV onto them. So this person was saying oh these videos I got off some guy are great, there's loads of stuff on them and this was on BBC Radio 2. Why was that allowed? There was an episode of "The Big Bang Theory" where they had to open up their Tivo box so they could put in a bigger drive so they wouldn't have to delete any episodes of a show they had recorded. Since these are popular TV shows and radio programmes I just feel that either it's not illegal, or someone is looking the other way. Though to avoid any future confusion, and I'm sorry to resurrect certain people to comment on this, or for any hardm caused but here are the parts of the Copyright and Patents Act 1988 I found, make of them what you will.

    70 Recording for purposes of time-shifting.E+W+S+N.I..[F15
    (1)]The making [F16 in domestic premises] for private and domestic use of a recording of a broadcast F17. . . solely for the purpose of enabling it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time does not infringe any copyright in the broadcast F17. . . or in any work included in it. .
    [F18
    (2)Where a copy which would otherwise be an infringing copy is made in accordance with this section but is subsequently dealt with— .
    (a)it shall be treated as an infringing copy for the purposes of that dealing; and .
    (b)if that dealing infringes copyright, it shall be treated as an infringing copy for all subsequent purposes. .
    (3)In subsection (2), “dealt with” means sold or let for hire, offered or exposed for sale or hire or communicated to the public.]

    72 Free public showing or playing of broadcast F20. . . .E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)The showing or playing in public of a broadcast F21. . . to an audience who have not paid for admission to the place where the broadcast F21. . . is to be seen or heard does not infringe any copyright in— .
    [F22
    (a)the broadcast; .
    (b)any sound recording (except so far as it is an excepted sound recording) included in it; or .
    (c)any film included in it.]

    75 Recording for archival purposes.E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)A recording of a broadcast F49. . . of a designated class, or a copy of such a recording, may be made for the purpose of being placed in an archive maintained by a designated body without thereby infringing any copyright in the broadcast F49. . . or in any work included in it. .
    (2)In subsection (1) “designated” means designated for the purposes of this section by order of the Secretary of State, who shall not designate a body unless he is satisfied that it is not established or conducted for profit. .
    (3)An order under this section shall be made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

    I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet.
    Don't let the old lags grind you down.
  • edited 6 March 2017, 10:48PM
    >> I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet.

    Not really.

    Would have been nice had you not jumped in and rushed to judge me and make sarcastic comments about a PoV I don't actually hold. But that's not the same as refraining from posting at all.
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 9:28PM
    Martin1 said:

    >> I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet.

    Not really.

    Would have been nice had you not jumped in and rushed to judge me and make sarcastic comments about a PoV I don't actually hold. But that's not the same as refraining from posting at all.

    You're right, as you always are lol
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 9:31PM
    BeatleUK said:

    Sorry I don't post on forums much. I forgot to say Hi Martin and Hi redchiz. You could do that, or swap out the hard drive. I'm not sure of the legalities on that. I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet. There are other boxes made by the same manufacturer that do allow exporting content to USB. Would they be allowed to sell the box in this country with that feature if it was a problem. I don't know. Just on one of Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 shows I remember there was a caller on there who had just bought a bag of videos, which someone had bought as blank and recorded programmes from the TV onto them. So this person was saying oh these videos I got off some guy are great, there's loads of stuff on them and this was on BBC Radio 2. Why was that allowed? There was an episode of "The Big Bang Theory" where they had to open up their Tivo box so they could put in a bigger drive so they wouldn't have to delete any episodes of a show they had recorded. Since these are popular TV shows and radio programmes I just feel that either it's not illegal, or someone is looking the other way. Though to avoid any future confusion, and I'm sorry to resurrect certain people to comment on this, or for any hardm caused but here are the parts of the Copyright and Patents Act 1988 I found, make of them what you will.

    70 Recording for purposes of time-shifting.E+W+S+N.I..[F15
    (1)]The making [F16 in domestic premises] for private and domestic use of a recording of a broadcast F17. . . solely for the purpose of enabling it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time does not infringe any copyright in the broadcast F17. . . or in any work included in it. .
    [F18
    (2)Where a copy which would otherwise be an infringing copy is made in accordance with this section but is subsequently dealt with— .
    (a)it shall be treated as an infringing copy for the purposes of that dealing; and .
    (b)if that dealing infringes copyright, it shall be treated as an infringing copy for all subsequent purposes. .
    (3)In subsection (2), “dealt with” means sold or let for hire, offered or exposed for sale or hire or communicated to the public.]

    72 Free public showing or playing of broadcast F20. . . .E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)The showing or playing in public of a broadcast F21. . . to an audience who have not paid for admission to the place where the broadcast F21. . . is to be seen or heard does not infringe any copyright in— .
    [F22
    (a)the broadcast; .
    (b)any sound recording (except so far as it is an excepted sound recording) included in it; or .
    (c)any film included in it.]

    75 Recording for archival purposes.E+W+S+N.I..
    (1)A recording of a broadcast F49. . . of a designated class, or a copy of such a recording, may be made for the purpose of being placed in an archive maintained by a designated body without thereby infringing any copyright in the broadcast F49. . . or in any work included in it. .
    (2)In subsection (1) “designated” means designated for the purposes of this section by order of the Secretary of State, who shall not designate a body unless he is satisfied that it is not established or conducted for profit. .
    (3)An order under this section shall be made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

    Thanks gwatuk, I'll try not to.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭
    edited 20 December 2016, 1:57PM
    Martin1 said:

    >> I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet.

    Not really.

    Would have been nice had you not jumped in and rushed to judge me and make sarcastic comments about a PoV I don't actually hold. But that's not the same as refraining from posting at all.

    celebrity fashion gallery
  • edited 20 March 2013, 9:50PM
    Martin1 said:

    >> I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet.

    Not really.

    Would have been nice had you not jumped in and rushed to judge me and make sarcastic comments about a PoV I don't actually hold. But that's not the same as refraining from posting at all.

    >> You're right, as you always are lol <<

    Ok, I can see it's pointless trying to treat you like an functioning adult. Hopefully one day this forum will get an ignore option. If it does you'll be the first person I add.
  • Lbear1Lbear1 Member Posts: 741
    edited 20 March 2013, 9:56PM
    Martin1 said:

    Hi Peter

    >> it is vital if you want to retain recordings

    Under UK law it's illegal to retain recordings, the law allows you to record solely for timeshifting purpose - watching once at a more convenient time. Storing it for long-term viewing ins't permitted.

    Given YouView is backed by broadcasters It's perhaps unlikely that a feature which breaks their legal protection against unauthorised copies would be added.

    Martin,
    You have already quoted the YouView Base Specification. You will note the section you cited included the requirement that the USB port can be used for "playback of material from an "external device" but there is "No requirement to export content". If any of the partners in YouView do not want some boxes to export, why does this simply not say "No provision to export content must be available". The wording in the specs is permissary and would allow makers to introduce this feature into the at present unused parts of the GUI where machine specific features, like exporting to a USB device, can be accommodated.

    DrHowells: You state "This could go on all day, because you fail to mention Section 75, which prohibits archiving copyright material unless you are a designated body". So you move the goalposts having previously quoted section 70.

    However, Section 75 does not do what you say. It gives the Secretary of State authority to permit a "designated body" to place recorded material in "an archive"; a big difference as an archive maintained by a body such as the BFI is rather different from a collection made by an individual for their personal viewing. Conflating the noun "archive" with the demotic meaning of the verb "to archive" has let you down.

    Looking up the Directive may help you clarify the meaning and intention of Section 75. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/L...

    In the regulations section of the Directive permitting member states to allow exceptions to copyright holders' reproduction rights; you will see there is a clear distinction made in Article 5 between 2b relating to reproductions made by "a natural person" for private use and 2c:

    "in respect of specific acts of reproduction made by publicly
    accessible libraries, educational establishments or museums,
    or by archives, which are not for direct or indirect
    economic or commercial advantage"

    Apart from anything else, the individual's protection built into the EU Directive and the subsequent UK legislation to enforce it postdates passage of the 1988 Act. New paragraph 17a that I quote above removes any claim to enforce copyright or claim ownership (ie the rights set out in Part 2 of the 1988 Act) if the recording of a broadcast is for personal use.

    It is quite clear that there is no provision in law restricting an individual from making a "back up copy" of an electronic recording providing this is also done for personal use and not for sale or public presentation. This restriction is facilitated in the case of HD broadcasts in the UK by makers agreeing to allow restricting to "copy once" to externally playable media (like the Blu-ray recorder in some Panasonic units) or by restricting to the original device the playback of HD PVR recordings (as Humax do with their HDR Fox T2). The fact that the UK providers broadcast the "copy once" flag on their HD broadcasts should be clear evidence that they are perfectly well aware that some of these may be recorded to a permanent medium and permit individuals to do so.

    So to avoid this confusion in future can we avoid the word "archive" in either noun or verb form and now agree that "backing up" a recording to an external medium (in the case of Youview boxes by exporting using the USB socket) would not be illegal?
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 February 2017, 3:05PM
    Martin, you refer to adult behaviour on the one hand. And then talk about ignoring somebody in the same breath, na-na-naaa-na-na, do you have no sense of irony?
  • CiceroCicero Member Posts: 345
    edited 26 September 2013, 8:33AM
    Martin, I didn't detect any sarcasm in BeatleUK's comment about your continued references to the legality of keeping recordings, nor did he in his initial comment refer to a point of view "which I don't actually hold". It does seem on a casual read that you have made a lot of references to the legality of recordings and there really doesn't seem to be much point, it's academic at best.
  • edited 24 April 2013, 8:15PM
    Martin1 said:

    Hi Peter

    >> it is vital if you want to retain recordings

    Under UK law it's illegal to retain recordings, the law allows you to record solely for timeshifting purpose - watching once at a more convenient time. Storing it for long-term viewing ins't permitted.

    Given YouView is backed by broadcasters It's perhaps unlikely that a feature which breaks their legal protection against unauthorised copies would be added.

    Hi Peter

    I have no idea why the spec is worded that way, some people might say "No requirement to export content" and "No provision to export content must be available" mean largely the same thing while others would read them as very different statements.

    I'd assume such a feature would would need to be made available in the YouVIew software, and therefore regardless of what the spec says, YouView and their shareholders would have the final say.

    But, as I've said before, I'd find a way or backing up, exporting or arching content useful. I don't think there's anything wrong, evil or dastardly about anyone else who'd like them added.

    I just doubt it's going to happen.

    It's a source of genuine bemusement to me that so many people choose to understand "I don't think this will happen, and here's why...' to mean 'this should never happen' or 'I don't want this to happen' or 'people who want this to happen are bad people'.
  • edited 24 April 2013, 8:17PM
    Cicero said:

    Martin, I didn't detect any sarcasm in BeatleUK's comment about your continued references to the legality of keeping recordings, nor did he in his initial comment refer to a point of view "which I don't actually hold". It does seem on a casual read that you have made a lot of references to the legality of recordings and there really doesn't seem to be much point, it's academic at best.

    Actually most of my references have been in response to people who, in some cases purely out of **** stirring, have repeatedly claimed I'm against it being implemented.

    In reality I merely said I didn't think it would be implemented and explained why.

    It's a feature I'd like to have, but some reason people choose to ignore that and prefer to try and portray my explanation of why I don't think it'll happen as a belief on my part that people who want that feature are bad people and/or that it shouldn't be added.

    Of course when liars lie about what I've said I post to put the record straight. That does require some restatement of the original point.

    But the fault for that rests with the liars.
  • edited 24 April 2013, 8:17PM
    redchiz said:

    Martin, you refer to adult behaviour on the one hand. And then talk about ignoring somebody in the same breath, na-na-naaa-na-na, do you have no sense of irony?

    I do have indeed have a sense of irony. I also understand the definition of irony which is a statement which implies a meaning in opposition to the literal.

    So the ironic way of reading:

    "You're right, as you always are lol"

    would be that I was wrong when I posted:

    Not really.

    Would have been nice had you not jumped in and rushed to judge me and make sarcastic comments about a PoV I don't actually hold. But that's not the same as refraining from posting at all.


    And course were I wrong, then that would mean BeatleUK should have refrained from posting.
  • Lbear1Lbear1 Member Posts: 741
    edited 20 March 2013, 11:22PM
    Martin1 said:

    Hi Peter

    >> it is vital if you want to retain recordings

    Under UK law it's illegal to retain recordings, the law allows you to record solely for timeshifting purpose - watching once at a more convenient time. Storing it for long-term viewing ins't permitted.

    Given YouView is backed by broadcasters It's perhaps unlikely that a feature which breaks their legal protection against unauthorised copies would be added.

    Martin; the paraphrase of the specs is "you don't have to but can if you want to". They do not ban a maker from implementing the feature if they want to. If you carefully read the specs you will see there is provision for them to include "device specific" options in the YouView menu.
  • edited 24 April 2013, 8:15PM
    Martin1 said:

    Hi Peter

    >> it is vital if you want to retain recordings

    Under UK law it's illegal to retain recordings, the law allows you to record solely for timeshifting purpose - watching once at a more convenient time. Storing it for long-term viewing ins't permitted.

    Given YouView is backed by broadcasters It's perhaps unlikely that a feature which breaks their legal protection against unauthorised copies would be added.

    >> They do not ban a maker from implementing the feature if they want to.

    Which is great because it's a feature I'd like to see. Assuming of course that how you read those words is the same as the meaning behind them in the specs.

    >> If you carefully read the specs you will see there is provision for them to include "device specific" options in the YouView menu.

    I read those specs long before most people here knew they were even available online.

    Whether this would be considered a "device specific" option - as opposed say to turning off the big round light - is something we'll have to see in the fullness of time,
  • Lbear1Lbear1 Member Posts: 741
    edited 20 March 2013, 11:29PM
    redchiz said:

    I suppose you could permanently store recordings on a YouView box. Until you filled the hard drive. And then what, buy another box?

    You could but it would not be reliable at the moment as I can personally vouch for after my first box suffered a combination of the multiple reboot and the "crash, recover and delete recordings" software glitches.

    One way to avoid buying a complete box would be to swap out with a 2Tb hard drive. If necessary, the files can be digitally copied to that or a third drive for back-up purposes. I understand that the restriction to only playback files recorded on the same box is already built in.
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 11:39PM
    Martin1 said:

    >> I didn't mean to make anyone angry, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I feel like I should have kept my mouth quiet.

    Not really.

    Would have been nice had you not jumped in and rushed to judge me and make sarcastic comments about a PoV I don't actually hold. But that's not the same as refraining from posting at all.

    I didn't mean it like that. I read earlier that you said you were always right and the 'lol' was put there to indicate I wasn't being sarcastic, maybe you need to chat online or something.
  • BeatleUKBeatleUK Member Posts: 14
    edited 20 March 2013, 11:40PM
    redchiz said:

    Martin, you refer to adult behaviour on the one hand. And then talk about ignoring somebody in the same breath, na-na-naaa-na-na, do you have no sense of irony?

    No I meant it as tongue-in-cheek. You do sound like someone who always has to be right, and I couldn't swear to the fact that you were right, or you were wrong. I was trying to make peace, but it seems that people like you only want war.
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