Missing the end of recorded programmes

Darren DolbelDarren Dolbel Posts: 1Member
edited 9 March 2017, 11:54PM in Archived Posts
The end of my recorded programmes are missing. It's almost as if the box is starting to record to early and then choosing to miss the last 5 minutes of the programme. Very frustrating. Please help. I can't find away of changing any settings applicable to this.

Comments

  • gomezgomez Posts: 2,073Member ✭✭
    edited 9 March 2017, 11:54PM
    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.
  • [removed][removed] Posts: 282Member
    edited 21 May 2014, 1:06PM
    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.

    Sorry Gomez I don't buy that. IMO the fault lies directly with YouView. They are providing a service that doesn't function properly. They are in partnership with the broadcasters and should be pressurising them to get it right. Surely YV must have more clout than a few disgruntled customers.

    This topic has been debated at length on this Forum and it seems impossible to find anybody who is willing to take the blame and sort it.
  • gomezgomez Posts: 2,073Member ✭✭
    edited 21 May 2014, 1:06PM
    I know you don't buy that. Doesn't make it any less true though.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,687Member ✭✭✭
    edited 6 March 2017, 9:48PM
    What channel(s)?
    I see the police have a new call-in code: DOE, for ‘Driving Offences Excused’
  • KeithKeith Posts: 2,423Member, Champion mod
    edited 4 March 2017, 9:29AM
    Hi Darren - the issue of clipped recordings is item 2 in the consolidated list of bugs and faults where there are links to several relevant topics at the end of that line. None of those topics will offer a way to work around the issue when using the YouView box but will at least give a broader understanding of why it happens and ways it could or should be addressed by the broadcasters and/or YouView etc.
  • Nik WattNik Watt Posts: 102Member
    edited 21 May 2014, 1:06PM
    My wife is trying to either watch Eastenders (thankfully by herself) or recordings of Emmerdales Omnibus (ditto): Neith has the whole programme, whether i is a recordin or 'life' with iPlayer.

    To say she's disappointed would be puttingit mildly.

    Should I reboot and retune AGAIN or is there something that can be downloaded to fix this issue?
  • DADA Posts: 142Member
    edited 3 May 2014, 7:08PM
    I know it doesnt solve the problem but you can watch Eastenders and Emmerdale via the On Demand players/by scrolling back through the EPG.
  • Nik WattNik Watt Posts: 102Member
    edited 21 May 2014, 1:06PM
    Thanks, DA: She tried this and still missed the ending(s)..
  • Nik WattNik Watt Posts: 102Member
    edited 21 May 2014, 1:06PM
    Seeing as either 'end' is there when you watch it 'live', it must surely be a fault by YouView?

    Additionally, it would appear impossible to 'wind on' the iPlayer/whatever or wind it back - can you do this?
  • Nik WattNik Watt Posts: 102Member
    edited 21 May 2014, 1:06PM
    [removed] said:

    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.

    Sorry Gomez I don't buy that. IMO the fault lies directly with YouView. They are providing a service that doesn't function properly. They are in partnership with the broadcasters and should be pressurising them to get it right. Surely YV must have more clout than a few disgruntled customers.

    This topic has been debated at length on this Forum and it seems impossible to find anybody who is willing to take the blame and sort it.

    I agree with you, Andy. The 'live' programme doesn't have bits missing, so the fault lies at the feet of YV directly.
  • Nik WattNik Watt Posts: 102Member
    edited 21 May 2014, 1:06PM
    I've called BT (the folk that supplied the YV Box). They blamethe aerial - which is at strength "10" and this cannot explain 'on demand' since the so-called 'catch up TV' is through the internet.

    If I'd known this was going to be so much bother I wouldn't have bothered!
  • Rob LynchRob Lynch Posts: 3Member
    edited 15 May 2014, 6:28PM
    gomez said:

    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.

    Obvious joker. Problem still occurs. Software needs to be amended to add time before and end of recording. Just like sky and Virgin do. Mine actually starts 30 seconds before and 30 second's before the end. It falls 30 seconds out of programming meaning I miss the last bit of programmes

    Year on and no resolution good work BT & Youview
  • TomWTomW Posts: 491Member ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 6:35PM
    gomez said:

    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.

    I sympathise and I agree that an option to add padding at the beginning and end of recordings would seem to be the simple and obvious solution. It has been debated on this forum at length several times and some of us including myself put forward strong arguments in favour of padding but YouView have made it clear that - for whatever reason - they're not going to go down that route.

    Technically it is the fault of the broadcaster as they have sent the accurate recording signal at the wrong time but I know that is of little consequence when all you want is to watch your recording in it's entirety.

    Just out of interest which programme / channel was it? I've had YouView for 18 months and I've only had a few truncated recordings, and not a single one that I can remember in the last six months, but I very rarely record anything other than BBC, ITV and C4 who all seem to be on the ball with their accurate recording signal.


  • Rob LynchRob Lynch Posts: 3Member
    edited 16 May 2014, 8:33AM
    gomez said:

    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.

    Record dinner date on ITV2 Youview misses the choice every time.

    Youview's stance is nonsense. Not all of these broadcasters can be getting it wrong. Things change with TV and hence the padding every other broadcaster adds or options for. I like to add as much as possible for run overs into news ect especially in unpredictable competitions like Wimbledon or Football.

    If this happens once it is a problem. I don't watch TV to miss the end.

    1 year on Youviews stance is really working! Bravo

    For the last time get the programmer to add the padding option to the software. Do not tell me this takes time. I could find you 10 qualified people to do this and it has already been done.

    I can see why Alan Sugar resigned.
  • drhowellsdrhowells Posts: 634Member ✭✭
    edited 20 December 2016, 5:21PM
    gomez said:

    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.

    Yes, all of those broadcasters are getting it wrong. As for things changing...that is the whole point of using this method of recording. If something does happen and a program is delayed, the time should be automatically changed and the whole program should still record. It works better than it used to, but there are still a few channels who get it wrong. I have found Drama get it wrong every now and then.
  • Rob LynchRob Lynch Posts: 3Member
    edited 15 May 2014, 9:01PM
    gomez said:

    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.

    That would suggest old formats are the issue. Unless we are going to forget re- runs of old programmes this will always happen. So again the buffer is required and always will be.
  • drhowellsdrhowells Posts: 634Member ✭✭
    edited 20 December 2016, 5:21PM
    gomez said:

    Complain to the broadcaster. The problem starts and ends with them.

    Nothing to do with the age of the program. All down to the broadcaster.
  • Nik WattNik Watt Posts: 102Member
    edited 21 May 2014, 1:06PM
    gomez said:

    I know you don't buy that. Doesn't make it any less true though.

    YouView AND the service from BT is utterly shite - oh, and over one hundred pounds more than a better service from SKY
  • Dave1Dave1 Posts: 12Member
    edited 9 March 2017, 11:54PM
    I've just watched a recording of Law and Order UK from 19th Feb on ITV3 only to find that it was cut short. Very Frustrating.

    I hope that YouView are doing something about this.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,687Member ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 7:39AM
    Dave1 said:

    I've just watched a recording of Law and Order UK from 19th Feb on ITV3 only to find that it was cut short. Very Frustrating.

    I hope that YouView are doing something about this.

    Why? It's the broadcaster's problem.
    I see the police have a new call-in code: DOE, for ‘Driving Offences Excused’
  • Dave1Dave1 Posts: 12Member
    edited 25 May 2014, 9:17AM
    Dave1 said:

    I've just watched a recording of Law and Order UK from 19th Feb on ITV3 only to find that it was cut short. Very Frustrating.

    I hope that YouView are doing something about this.

    To me Youview is like the retailer of a product and the broadcaster is like the manufacturer. When i buy something from a retailer that is faulty they are the one's primarily responsible for sorting out the problem not the manufacturer.

    My Freeview Humax box does not have the same problem.
  • drhowellsdrhowells Posts: 634Member ✭✭
    edited 20 December 2016, 5:21PM
    Dave1 said:

    I've just watched a recording of Law and Order UK from 19th Feb on ITV3 only to find that it was cut short. Very Frustrating.

    I hope that YouView are doing something about this.

    So, If you are watching normal Freeview on your Sony TV and ITV goes down, would you expect Sony to chase them to get the problem resolved? Your other Humax box uses a different recording method. The Accurate Record (AR) method that YouView uses is not unique to YouView.
  • TomWTomW Posts: 491Member ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 6:35PM
    Dave1 said:

    I've just watched a recording of Law and Order UK from 19th Feb on ITV3 only to find that it was cut short. Very Frustrating.

    I hope that YouView are doing something about this.

    YouView have it within their power to fix this problem in software. For whatever reason they have chosen not to do that. It's hardly surprising then that customers like Dave ask questions of YouView. The fact that a few other systems also use AR is irrelevant, and in any case the counter argument is that in order to avoid truncated recordings most other systems do not rely solely on AR. The YouView AR system in it's present form is flawed, but most of us knew that from day one.
  • KeithKeith Posts: 2,423Member, Champion mod
    edited 4 March 2017, 9:29AM
    In a perfect world then AR would be great. It provides accurate input data that allows for a broadly clean and simple recording mechanism that in turn outputs perfect results every time exactly capturing the programme set unless there are wider factors that come in to play such as programme delays/extensions etc that result in a clash for which the system cannot compensate. Even then if wider factors come in to play that were not evident at the point the recording was set then further elements to the algorithm can try to compensate for this by picking up a repeat transmission of the programme. In many cases this works very well and overall I rarely suffer from a clipped or failed recording and on a few occasions when it has happened that has been beyond the control of the YouView box but it has seamlessly recovered the situation picking up the programme at a later date.

    So all in all it should be great and even now works very well most of the time.

    However it fundamentally relies on the accurate input data that comes from the broadcasters and if the quality/accuracy of that data is reduced then so too is the quality/accuracy of the results given by the YouView system (or other systems that choose to purely rely on AR).

    Given there are over one million YouView users one might infer from the little we see here that the system works very well. Equally one might infer the problem is not massive but is a niggle for many but not great enough that they report the issue here for those on the forum to see.

    Ideally what I would like is more concrete data to understand the wider situation beyond my own experience and the comments and reports some people make on the forum. So for example
    • a list of all the broadcasters whose content can be consumed via a YouView box and outline details of how they each implement AR, e.g. do they just send out signals based on the planned programme schedule, do they occasionally manually correct that if events/programmes change/overrun, do they have a fully automated system that truly sends signals when the programmes actually change etc
    • given an understanding of how each broadcaster implements AR, a breakdown of how accurately their system works, e.g. taking sample weeks in the year a report of how the AR signals compared to the actually transmitted timings (which might then be plotted to show the number of seconds clipped from the start/end of each programme (if any) and hence demonstrate what percentage of programmes are technically clipped and when they are how much is clipped (i.e. a few seconds might be considered to be acceptable whereas 30 seconds is likely to mean missing the dramatic climax or the important intro scenario))
    Dependent on what such hard facts show we could better understand the scale of the issue and could also see over time as more sample weeks data appears whether YouView and others are able to further influence the broadcasters to improve the accuracy of the input data that effectively drives the AR system. We could further gauge whether the issues appear large enough in the broader context to warrant supporting further extensions to any YouView recording algorithm to compensate for the short comings of the input data/the data from the broadcasters. As TomW has mentioned other systems do offer options to compensate for the real world experienced short comings of AR. In some cases such options can be quite/very intelligent and hence deliver the great base benefits of AR combined with the additional benefits of human experience and any compensating factors that thus suggests would give better end results. Of course adding in additional elements to an algorithm/code adds to the complexity and should not be done lightly since it can bring with it both short term new problems as it is bedded in but also longer term problems of maintenance or even limitations/complications when it comes to make further changes or additions to the wider system in the future.

    In conclusion ideally the broadcaster data would be clearly demonstrated to be very good already and continually improving such that AR is seen to be very efficient and accurate and hence justify keeping the coding/implementation broadly simple, clean and robust. In the absence of that though it would demonstrate how much value there could be of an extended compensating AR based recording algorithm that could in due course be given development time and become a positive feature that adds value to the YouView system.

  • zulu17zulu17 Posts: 899Member ✭✭
    edited 1 March 2017, 10:49AM
    I find it remarkable that in every single programme I watch or record on Youview has a start and finsh time in the Youview EPG which is an exact multiple of 5 minutes. I suspect the Youview box is not unique here.

    However very few actually start or finish at the precise time shown in the EPG. So effectively the EPG is being populated only to an accuracy of 5 minute intervals.. Thus unless accurate recording is correctly implemented for a channel any system that defaults to using the EPG time will produce imperfect recordings with programs missing start/end etc.
  • KeithKeith Posts: 2,423Member, Champion mod
    edited 4 March 2017, 9:29AM
    The short comings of this 5 minute granularity of the freeview EPG were highlight with the shaun the sheep experiment some time ago. Here you have the extreme case of a programme that is on the order of 5-10 minutes in length and a channel that appeared to be doing very crude AR signalling based on the timetabled programme listing rather than on exactly what is being broadcast. For longer programmes given that almost all channels have adverts even this crude approach will often be sufficient given the 3-5 minute padding/change over time the adverts put in to the schedule. However relying on that when programmes will often fail to exactly fit the 5 minute time points is potentially poor.

    As such this basically comes back to my questions above whereby we need to understand how each channel/broadcaster implements AR signalling and hence we can easily see the pitfalls of anything but a well designed accurate approach but also then see in practice how often those logical pitfalls actually result in poor results.
  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,687Member ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 7:39AM
    Dave1 said:

    I've just watched a recording of Law and Order UK from 19th Feb on ITV3 only to find that it was cut short. Very Frustrating.

    I hope that YouView are doing something about this.

    Dave

    YouView stands in relation to your problem loosely as Microsoft Windows would stand in relation to a problem with a file it couldn't open on your computer. Might be its fault, might not.

    But they would be neither retailer nor manufacturer here, as likewise is the case of YouView.

    There are two possibilities with your recording; that itv did not send the AR information correctly, or that your YouView box did not interpret it correctly.

    Feb 19 is a bit far back now, but you could certainly ask itv if they had other reports, or knowledge of, wrong AR on that programme.

    If not, then you might want to blame YouView.

    But padding is not the panacea you seek; if YouView were muffing up the AR, rest assured they could equally well muff up recording with padding :-(

    Having said which, we know that YouView boxes wake up on their own, non-AR-driven schedule some time before the programme is scheduled, so they could perfectly well auto-start themselves at the appointed time, clock the AR,
    if it happened, run until start time plus scheduled programme length plus five minutes, say, or to AR time plus scheduled run time plus five minutes if that was later.

    Or if there had been a start AR, even if late, just ignore any 'premature' end AR ( I say end AR, but it's really the start AR of the next programme), but if none came before the scheduled run time of the programme had elapsed, wait indefinitely for the end AR - about the only way that anyone could have taped the whole of that Steve Davis/Dennis Taylor final, perhaps, when padding would have run out long before.

    A couple of flags in the YouView menu could then select the exact enhanced recording strategy required without the usual baggage that a padding UI brings, and result in a solution that was arguably better than padding.

    This might need some extra clash arbitration rules, but the simplest would be just to say that any programme overrunning its scheduled time due to the application of the new recording rules should yield to the scheduled one.
    I see the police have a new call-in code: DOE, for ‘Driving Offences Excused’
  • TomWTomW Posts: 491Member ✭✭
    edited 27 November 2016, 6:35PM
    Dave1 said:

    I've just watched a recording of Law and Order UK from 19th Feb on ITV3 only to find that it was cut short. Very Frustrating.

    I hope that YouView are doing something about this.

    Some of what you have described there Roy is more or less what the Topfield does with the MyStuff UI. That is to say the AR signal is used as the marker for when recordings begin and end, but optional padding is added on top of this. In the event that there are back to back recordings on two separate channels the padding is removed to avoid a timer clash.

    Using this system - and assuming the AR signal was sent at the end of the broadcast - the Steve Davis/Dennis Taylor final would be recorded in it's entirety. This is usually what happens in my experience, for example, with the Topfield I've recorded countless football matches that have gone into extra time and run beyond their scheduled time slot, and the recordings have without exception always been extended automatically to the end of the broadcast. I don't think any system can be completely foolproof, of course, but in the seven years I've had the Topfield I think I've only had one truncated recording.

    So as I'm sure you're aware with your background in IT/Software, the YouView system could be improved, if they chose to dedicate the time and resources to it.

  • RoyRoy Posts: 14,687Member ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 7:39AM
    Dave1 said:

    I've just watched a recording of Law and Order UK from 19th Feb on ITV3 only to find that it was cut short. Very Frustrating.

    I hope that YouView are doing something about this.

    Cheers TomW

    One of the possible problens with scheduling, though not here, is recordings starting late, after the programme does.

    For which the AR signal is of little use, if it is late, and so the start time has to be based on the claimed scheduled start time, if no AR signal is forthcoming on time.

    The finish time likewise can't be based on AR, as per the OP's problem. So the AR can only be taken into account if earlier than the scheduled start time, or the next one is later than the scheduled end time.

    But it wouldn't be padding in the old 'ooh, add another five minutes either side' hydrodigital forecasting we used to do with videotape; it would be, as you describe, something a bit cleverer that took cognisance of any AR signals received, but didn't slavishly just cling to them.
    I see the police have a new call-in code: DOE, for ‘Driving Offences Excused’
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