Why is my BBC HD channels different to normal channel?

DuvetManDuvetMan Member Posts: 75
edited 6 March 2017, 9:48PM in Archived Posts
I actually have two question relating to this

1. Why is my BBC1 HD channal actually BBC1 HD Scotland when my SD BBC1 is Northeast and Cumbria.

2. Why when I set BBC1 HD to series record after the first recording it changes the channel to BBC1 HD Scotland

can anyone help it really winding me up now.

Comments

  • SanjSanj Member Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited 6 March 2017, 9:36AM
    Hi Chris,

    According to the BBC website the only other versions of BBC One HD is:
    • BBC One HD Scotland
    • BBC One HD Northern Island
    • BBC One HD Wales
    and also state "BBC One HD cannot at the moment offer programmes for other regions." If BBC One HD Scotland is the closet BBC HD region to you, this would be the correct transmission for you.  

    In regards to the series record you mentioned, when you set a series to record, the YouView box does two things:
    1. Sets a recording for the initial programme, on the channel you selected to record it from (BBC One HD)
    2. Sets a series link for the rest of that show in the future. This series link will most likely be using the same content reference identifier (CRID) across the BBC One HD channels. Because of this, the rest of the series record will record according to the correct BBC One HD region you are in. 
    If you set the series link to originally record on BBC One HD Scotland they should all record off of that one channel throughout. 
  • roger1roger1 Member Posts: 69
    edited 6 March 2017, 9:36AM
    Sanj

    This sounds like an old problem that has not been fixed, as Tanja at the time perhaps agreed.
    Perhaps Keith can add it to his problem list.

    https://community.youview.com/youview/topics/bbc_scotland-t1s4i
  • SanjSanj Member Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited 21 December 2016, 6:56PM
    roger1 said:

    Sanj

    This sounds like an old problem that has not been fixed, as Tanja at the time perhaps agreed.
    Perhaps Keith can add it to his problem list.

    https://community.youview.com/youview/topics/bbc_scotland-t1s4i

    Good point roger, must have missed that thread. 

    Chris - Do you know what transmitter you are connected to?
  • DuvetManDuvetMan Member Posts: 75
    edited 2 August 2014, 3:52PM
    roger1 said:

    Sanj

    This sounds like an old problem that has not been fixed, as Tanja at the time perhaps agreed.
    Perhaps Keith can add it to his problem list.

    https://community.youview.com/youview/topics/bbc_scotland-t1s4i

    Sorry i don't but will find out and post it back on here
  • roger1roger1 Member Posts: 69
    edited 25 October 2014, 11:23AM
    roger1 said:

    Sanj

    This sounds like an old problem that has not been fixed, as Tanja at the time perhaps agreed.
    Perhaps Keith can add it to his problem list.

    https://community.youview.com/youview/topics/bbc_scotland-t1s4i

    Chris
    http://www.ukfree.tv

    That a good site to start. Type in your postcode and it should give you a map of all possible transmitters you can see.
  • Lbear1Lbear1 Member Posts: 741
    edited 2 August 2014, 3:46PM
    I suspect your question is really for the BBC. Use Roger's link to ukfree.tv  and check which services are being broadcast from your nearest main transmitter. In some border areas you may find that the feed from London is down so they use the Scottish feed. 

    You may well be "in sight" of two transmitters and your box is deciding incorrectly which service to use on the basis of your postcode. Have you tried changing it to one further south - the postcode for a town hall or better the BBC's regional studios is a good bet.  It also messes up the data collection that YouView does unless you set the privacy option on your box ;-)
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,453 ✭✭✭
    edited 4 March 2017, 9:29AM
    Hi all - reading this topic and the other one Roger has linked to, whilst I can see what is being described as happening is potentially confusing it is not entirely clear which parts (if any) are YouView problems.

    The details in Sanj's reply above for the first issue (Why is my BBC1 HD channel actually BBC1 HD Scotland when my SD BBC1 is Northeast and Cumbria) seem to answer this even though from a user perspective this does then lead to potential confusion, where the source of that confusion is ultimately what the BBC do/do not transmit in and for different locations.

    The details in Sanj's reply above for the second issue (Why when I set BBC1 HD to series record after the first recording it changes the channel to BBC1 HD Scotland) then seem to explain/reiterate how the YouView series link algorithm works and hence how it can choose to use the programme with the same CRID that may be on another channel (or perhaps that the algorithm actually has a preference for the so called correct region version of the channel so choose that thereafter). In this example it seems a little confusing that it then choose BBC HD Scotland but is presumably largely similar to the box perhaps choosing a +1 channel etc if the box consider that a perfectly reasonable instance of the programme to record (although from Sanj's comments as already noted it does seem to be saying it does have a bias towards the channel variant it considers regionally correct). So unless in this particular example the programme ultimately recorded is not actually the same episode in the series then the box is recording what is requested although perhaps again making a choice that to the end user might seem unusual. One could argue if the YouView series link algorithm does already have a preference rule then it could be modified or one added whereby it always prefers to have the series link from the same channel you initially select to record from and only hunts out another instance when it seems truly preferable (from an obvious user perspective rather than appearing to override what has probably been a conscience user choice), e.g. to avoid a triple clash that would result in a recording failure or to pick an instance that actually airs sooner which may be considered better than waiting to the one that is more naturally a step on in the sequence from the item you initial hit record on.
  • Lbear1Lbear1 Member Posts: 741
    edited 2 August 2014, 4:06PM
    Kieth, to be able to record BBC One Scotland, the box must be receiving a signal. As I said before, it looks like the problems is related to more than one transmitter being available. The English regional broadcasts may come from a low power relay but the available signal from a Scottish region HD mux might be stronger so the box tries to tune to that when it does its check for new channels.

    To be honest, I am not too sure what the problem is as the same programme will usually be broadcast by both country's HD versions. Where it is different, the CRID would be different too so the algorithm would not record. The only difference I could foresee in the recordings would be the station ident and announcements at the start and end.
  • DuvetManDuvetMan Member Posts: 75
    edited 2 August 2014, 3:52PM
    Thank you all for your comments, its great to be able to put a question out there and people with so much more expertise be able to answer me so quickly.

    So i have checked on wolfbane what transmitters are available and i have two sited in exactly the same position one for scotland and the other for england, how do i get my box to use the england one?

    image
  • DuvetManDuvetMan Member Posts: 75
    edited 2 August 2014, 4:10PM
    Following on  from peter wells comments i have now reset my postcode to NW Cumbria BBC postal code (NE2 4NS) it was actually set to youviews corporate address.

    I have retuned and set the area to england, borders

    will see what happens
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,650 ✭✭✭
    edited 6 March 2017, 9:48PM
    Lot of confusion here.

    The first thing to consider is that irregardless of what postcode you type in (which to save everyone's confusion, should preferably be where your YouView box is situated and not anything else), the YouView box is going to search for local transmitters.

    And on a good day, it will find the same one or ones that your TV finds.
    And on an even better day, if it finds a choice of transmitters, or of signals from a single transmitter, it will offer you that choice for you to make the appropriate selection.

    e.g. I get Ridge Hill, which serves Central and SouthWest , and I am offered that choice by my YouView box.

    So with Caldbeck, if that is what you get, you should be offered the choice of NorthWest or Scotland, and on choosing NorthWest, should get the relevant BBC 1 HD, and not BBC 1 HD Scotland.

    So the first thing is to decide where you really live, and thus which transmitter you should get; and then to find out if you do. This is easier if you have a TV that pulls in HD than if only the YouView box supplies this.

    But YouView boxes are notorious for pulling in the wrong transmitter, and this may be happening here.

    But there is a little more qualification of the problem to be done before we know exactly what the issue is here.

    The Series record thing is a curlicue on the infelicitous YouView design decision to expose the workings of Series recordings as a single recording followed by further recordings. Whether the YouView box politely accepts your BBC 1 HD suggestion while secretly resolving to get the Scotland ones, or finds it can't get what you asked for but gets you the same programmes on Scotland as a consolation prize is a dichotomy you shouldn't even see.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • roger1roger1 Member Posts: 69
    edited 6 March 2017, 9:48PM
    Duvetman  
    I am not sure where we go from here.
    The facts are, I believe, there is a single transmitter Caldbeck which has a set of multiplexes for England and Scotland. Youview gives you the option to select england, border or I presume scotland, border.
    You select england and get correctly the BBCA mux on channel 25 which gives you the English BBC SD channels, rather than the BBCA mux on channel 27 which has theScottish BBC SD channels.
    You incorrectly get the BBCB mux on channel 22 which has BBC 1HD Scotland rather than the BBCB mux  on channel 30 which contains BBC 1HD England.

    Roy has asked you if you  have HD on your tv and if so which BBC1HD do you get?

    There seems to be a feeling that Youview will pick the mux with the stronger signal. (I am interpreting Keith's contribution here).

    I note that Scottish SD channels are broadcast at 50,000W and the English channels are broadcast at 100,000W.
    I believe that the HD channels are both broadcast at 100,000W.

    So it is possible that Youview is allowing you to select the SD mux but is giving you the strongest HD mux.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,650 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 7:39AM
    roger1 said:

    Duvetman  
    I am not sure where we go from here.
    The facts are, I believe, there is a single transmitter Caldbeck which has a set of multiplexes for England and Scotland. Youview gives you the option to select england, border or I presume scotland, border.
    You select england and get correctly the BBCA mux on channel 25 which gives you the English BBC SD channels, rather than the BBCA mux on channel 27 which has theScottish BBC SD channels.
    You incorrectly get the BBCB mux on channel 22 which has BBC 1HD Scotland rather than the BBCB mux  on channel 30 which contains BBC 1HD England.

    Roy has asked you if you  have HD on your tv and if so which BBC1HD do you get?

    There seems to be a feeling that Youview will pick the mux with the stronger signal. (I am interpreting Keith's contribution here).

    I note that Scottish SD channels are broadcast at 50,000W and the English channels are broadcast at 100,000W.
    I believe that the HD channels are both broadcast at 100,000W.

    So it is possible that Youview is allowing you to select the SD mux but is giving you the strongest HD mux.

    Hi Roger

    Nice analysis!

    But pace Keith, we perhaps think that YouView pulls in the first mux it sees, and then the rest of the set of muxes that goes with that, rather than the strongest set of muxes, and that is the root of the problem.

    This would remain a consistent description of the problem if the YouView box arbitrates HD separately from SD, and so looks at 22, 25,27,30 in sequence and picks up 22 for HD and 25 for SD, the first of which happens to be wrong, and the second correct.

    It might be worth DuvetMan looking in the 800s to see if BBC 1 HD is nestling there - my YouView box puts the alternate itv region I can get there, though it regrettably does not put the alternate BBC region there, nor any other alternate regional channels it might find.

    I don't know the algorithm by which TV sets choose a set of muxes, though I do know this is laid down in the FreeView specs, and even though YouView isn't FreeView, YouView claim that their tuning algorithm passes all the standard tests it should.

    But it manifestly doesn't work like it should, and what we have here may be the discovery of a further departure from the ideal.

    But a standard YouView box gives you no insight into what muxes/channels it is finding when it tunes, nor what muxes/channels it has chosen when it has finished tuning :-(

    This simplicity is all very well, but if YouView are going to hide all these things under the bonnet, then they need to arrange things so that no-one ever has the need to lift the bonnet.

    I think it is more than high time that YouView loaded an instrumented YouView box in a van and drove round some of the problematic tuning areas in the UK, finding out what it actually does do, rather than what they think it does. Sitting testing in the middle of London isn't going to help here.

    But like many of the reasonable requests by which we hope to help YouView realise all its potential, this will no doubt fall on deaf ears yet again :-(
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • DuvetManDuvetMan Member Posts: 75
    edited 3 August 2014, 9:28AM
    Sorry everyone but I don't have a TV with freeview HD that's one of the reasons for getting you view

    I suppose ultimately I am stuck with the problem

    Thanks for the contribution though, I appreciate it.
  • roger1roger1 Member Posts: 69
    edited 25 October 2014, 11:23AM
    We have provided Sanj with some detail about what the issue that you have.
    Two years ago, when Youview started there were a number of issues with people unable to receive the correct tv stations  in various parts of the country. The tv reception is I believe in the manufacturer specific part of the software, so each manufacturer has a different set up. Youview were able to work with the two manufacturers to get the problem solved relatively quickly.
    It was obvious that nobody wanted publicity about the product being unusable in specific parts of the country.
    I think it would be useful if you identified the type of box that you have and then it is down to Youview to see if they wish to take the issue further.
  • DuvetManDuvetMan Member Posts: 75
    edited 3 August 2014, 7:14PM
    roger1 said:

    We have provided Sanj with some detail about what the issue that you have.
    Two years ago, when Youview started there were a number of issues with people unable to receive the correct tv stations  in various parts of the country. The tv reception is I believe in the manufacturer specific part of the software, so each manufacturer has a different set up. Youview were able to work with the two manufacturers to get the problem solved relatively quickly.
    It was obvious that nobody wanted publicity about the product being unusable in specific parts of the country.
    I think it would be useful if you identified the type of box that you have and then it is down to Youview to see if they wish to take the issue further.

    Its a BT DTR-T1000
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