Extend instant recording to include content from the buffer back to the start of the programme

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Comments

  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 2 February 2017, 1:25PM
    The box is already recording it anyway.

    It's such a massive fail for a PVR not to be able to do this!
  • Bob ReasonBob Reason Member Posts: 2
    edited 6 March 2017, 10:48PM
    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 23 November 2015, 7:50PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    I'm afraid the Humax (BT) YouView and new Humax Freeview Playback boxes record Live TV to a memory chip and actual recordings to the Hard Disk.

    I've confirmed that's how it works on the Humax's Freeview Playback boxes and highly suspect their Youview boxes work the same way too.

    I suspect this is so part of the hard disk isn't sectioned off (as was the case with Humax's Freeview+ boxes) BUT it also means there's no capability to record the Live TV buffer.

    I agree it totally sucks and despite the obvious benefits of not losing hard disk space is a bad design choice. Due to where Live TV data is stored I can't see this ever being changed. It's recorded to a totally separate location.

    I expect also it lengthens the life of the hard disk not having to constantly write to it too.

    I suspect the TalkTalk Huwei YouView boxes work the same way too. It's my biggest annoyance with my Humax Youview box too.

    The way I usually get around it is to search for repeats and record those. This obviously isn't always possible though.
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 December 2016, 11:30PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    Whilst such an effective partitioning of the storage/separation of live and recording data adds complications one might still expect they could define a (simple) algorithm to still allow recording from the buffer. In its simplest terms at the point one hits record it could start the recording to disk as it does now but also trigger a copy/dump of the appropriate part of the buffer from the memory chip to a separate file on the recordings disk. That would be quite crude and leave a split recording (automatically rolled up into a folder) but at least one would have the whole programme. Surely they can do better than that and basically have a means of transferring the relevant part of the buffer (from the memory chip to the storage disk) at the point one hits record and append the then ongoing recording to the end of the programme (or join them at the end which is of course also useful for real split recordings as noted in item 77 of the consolidated list of improvements and feature requests ;-) )
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 23 November 2015, 8:07PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    One would expect this yes. I expect it's so far down their list of priorities though we'll never end up seeing it. But yes I agree.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭
    edited 6 March 2017, 10:48PM
    This is a personal bugbear of mine, big time, the number of occasions when I have missed the start of something and would like to invoke this feature. It would be easier to forgive were it not commonplace amongst other PVRs, notably Sky which, let's face it and like it or not, tends to be reagrded as the benchmark.
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 23 November 2015, 8:18PM
    redchiz said:

    This is a personal bugbear of mine, big time, the number of occasions when I have missed the start of something and would like to invoke this feature. It would be easier to forgive were it not commonplace amongst other PVRs, notably Sky which, let's face it and like it or not, tends to be reagrded as the benchmark.

    Virgin boxes don't work this way either. The reasons why are obvious.

    It's evidentially a Humax design choice. They make all the Youview retail boxes, the BT Youview box and their new Freeview Playbox box.

    Annoyingly their old Freeview+ SD boxes didn't work this way. I don't know about their newer Freeview+ HD or Freesat boxes.

    I'd be interested to have it confirmed if Huwei have implemented their Youview boxes this way?
  • alal Member, Super User Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 December 2016, 12:01PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    Now I'm puzzled why my T2000 hard disc is constantly spinning.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭
    edited 20 December 2016, 1:57PM
    redchiz said:

    This is a personal bugbear of mine, big time, the number of occasions when I have missed the start of something and would like to invoke this feature. It would be easier to forgive were it not commonplace amongst other PVRs, notably Sky which, let's face it and like it or not, tends to be reagrded as the benchmark.

    There is no variance between YouView box manufacturers i.e. Huawei vs Humax as to essential functionality.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 8:40AM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    Given that you must be watching, and must have been watching, the channel in question, there could only be one other recording going on at the same time, so there is no more demand on the machine resources here than there is in chasing play.

    So even if the current buffer is on a chip (which I don't believe anyway of the hard disc YouView devices) it is simply a case of laying down the past recording to disc while continuing to record the incoming stream to the chip until the recording has caught up, and then seamlessly transferring to hard drive direct from live.

    There are more than enough resources there to do that.

    And if, as I think, the recording is to the hard disc anyway, it is even simpler, and just needs some identity information which the YouView box must already possess or be able to access, to characterise the recording, just as if the recording had been set in advance, but the user then decided to watch the programme as well.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 8:40AM
    redchiz said:

    This is a personal bugbear of mine, big time, the number of occasions when I have missed the start of something and would like to invoke this feature. It would be easier to forgive were it not commonplace amongst other PVRs, notably Sky which, let's face it and like it or not, tends to be reagrded as the benchmark.

    Or lack thereof....
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 23 November 2015, 11:14PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    Why don't you believe it?

    That's how it works for the Freeview Playback boxes, also made by Humax. I've got it in an e-mail somewhere.

    There's logic to Humax repeating what they did with their Youview boxes when developing their Freeview Playbox boxes.

    It would also explain why their Youview box can't do this too.

    Are you just guessing?

    Besides it could be the simplest procedure in the world. It doesn't mean it's going to be added any time or even ever.

    I suspect we're being ignored on this one.
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 23 November 2015, 11:16PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    In fact this was precisely the reason Humax gave me why it can't be done:

    "Unfortunately that buffer cannot be recorded as it is stored on a  temporary memory."

    You could argue there's ways around it but that's Humax's stance on their Freeview Playbox boxes at least.

    Pop them an e-mail. They're quick to reply.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 8:40AM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    Why put 12GB oF otherwise unneeded RAM memory in a device with a big hard drive?

    Why does my hard drive 'tick' when I am just watching one programme?
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,211 ✭✭✭
    edited 22 December 2016, 12:06AM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    "Unfortunately that buffer cannot be recorded as it is stored on a  temporary memory."
    Its true that. Tick tock tick tock. To have a constantly live buffer from the disk to the chip and then back from the chip to the disk would have massive demands which the OS just couldn't cope with. And also massive demands on the disk itself. 
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 8:40AM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    But if that were true, wouldn't it make live watching of a programme you were recording impossible?

    Which is manifestly not the case.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • alal Member, Super User Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 December 2016, 12:01PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    Live recording goes on the HDD, buffering goes to the magic RAM.

    btw I only saw flash on the board which would not cope with the constant read/write cycles.
  • JoeJoe Member, Super User Posts: 2,064 ✭✭✭
    edited 24 November 2015, 2:49PM
    redchiz said:

    This is a personal bugbear of mine, big time, the number of occasions when I have missed the start of something and would like to invoke this feature. It would be easier to forgive were it not commonplace amongst other PVRs, notably Sky which, let's face it and like it or not, tends to be reagrded as the benchmark.

    Using the BBC live resart function in the channel section in iplayer, goes a little of the way to addressing this issue. Then we have the ondemand programs which addresses the recording issue...well up to a month anyway in the case of BBC iplayer.

    Shame it doesn't work for all channels though, plus there tends to be a drop in quality when it comes to ondemand compared to broadcast.

    Edit: I should add that live restart is not without its problems. If you loose the stream for whatever reason, then you have to go right back to the beginning of a program. Really annoying if you're engrossed in the last 15mins of a massive plot reveal :(
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 8:40AM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    So where can the magic RAM be, then?

    And do we agree it will need to be at least 12GB, to be able to buffer two hours of HD?

    I might also point out that the disc seems to be able to cope with the simultaneous recording of two programmes plus the playing back of a third; and in the scenario we are discussing, that third programme playback is not taking place, which seems to open up a window for the disc to utilise that spare capacity for the job above.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • alal Member, Super User Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 December 2016, 12:01PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    Yes, I agree about 12GB. I didn't check the disc partition sizes when I looked but I bet one is about that (There are about 6 partitions). 
  • alal Member, Super User Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭
    edited 6 March 2017, 10:48PM
    I'm sure you all know but a feature I keep forgetting about is useful here:

    If you are near then end of a programme you forgot to record, just hit record anyway (I usually go for series record). If it's on again the youview box is pretty good at finding the next complete recording even (especially?) if it's on a channel which you have hidden.

    Obviously this won't work for everything and it's usually the stuff you can get on catchup anyway.
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 25 November 2015, 8:34PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    @ Roy: Like I said e-mail Humax and ask. It'll cut to the chase. They reply to me quickly.

    Don't you mean 12GB of solid state memory? 12GB of RAM is an awful lot. I'd be amazed if it's got anywhere near.

    It sounds like we're potentially saying they have 12GB of solid state memory for buffering. There's your answer.
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 25 November 2015, 8:36PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    "I might also point out that the disc seems to be able to cope with the simultaneous recording of two programmes plus the playing back of a third; and in the scenario we are discussing, that third programme playback is not taking place, which seems to open up a window for the disc to utilise that spare capacity for the job above."

    None of this is really relevant to a hard disk having to constantly write/re-write a buffer.

    A buffer is quite different from recording a programme which isn't going to be done 24/7 (if the box is left on).
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 25 November 2015, 8:36PM
    al said:

    I'm sure you all know but a feature I keep forgetting about is useful here:

    If you are near then end of a programme you forgot to record, just hit record anyway (I usually go for series record). If it's on again the youview box is pretty good at finding the next complete recording even (especially?) if it's on a channel which you have hidden.

    Obviously this won't work for everything and it's usually the stuff you can get on catchup anyway.

    Good point. I tend to just quickly search for a repeat. Which it's also good at doing.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 8:40AM
    al said:

    I'm sure you all know but a feature I keep forgetting about is useful here:

    If you are near then end of a programme you forgot to record, just hit record anyway (I usually go for series record). If it's on again the youview box is pretty good at finding the next complete recording even (especially?) if it's on a channel which you have hidden.

    Obviously this won't work for everything and it's usually the stuff you can get on catchup anyway.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curat...
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • bradavonbradavon Member Posts: 93
    edited 25 November 2015, 10:48PM
    al said:

    I'm sure you all know but a feature I keep forgetting about is useful here:

    If you are near then end of a programme you forgot to record, just hit record anyway (I usually go for series record). If it's on again the youview box is pretty good at finding the next complete recording even (especially?) if it's on a channel which you have hidden.

    Obviously this won't work for everything and it's usually the stuff you can get on catchup anyway.

    Lets stick on topic. We all get notified when a reply is posted and this won't help YouView to add this feature. Thanks.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 8:40AM
    al said:

    I'm sure you all know but a feature I keep forgetting about is useful here:

    If you are near then end of a programme you forgot to record, just hit record anyway (I usually go for series record). If it's on again the youview box is pretty good at finding the next complete recording even (especially?) if it's on a channel which you have hidden.

    Obviously this won't work for everything and it's usually the stuff you can get on catchup anyway.

    It is on topic. Think about it.

    Quoting (inadequate) workarounds just takes the pressure off YouView to fix this properly :-(
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,211 ✭✭✭
    edited 22 December 2016, 12:06AM
    al said:

    I'm sure you all know but a feature I keep forgetting about is useful here:

    If you are near then end of a programme you forgot to record, just hit record anyway (I usually go for series record). If it's on again the youview box is pretty good at finding the next complete recording even (especially?) if it's on a channel which you have hidden.

    Obviously this won't work for everything and it's usually the stuff you can get on catchup anyway.

    Yet using these "inadequate" workarounds are the best one will find anywhere. And they work well.
    I've asked you before Roy to show me a box that should provide as you called them 'basic expectations' of a PVR but you didn't answer. However, to answer your link above - more good than bad, I think.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 December 2016, 8:40AM
    al said:

    I'm sure you all know but a feature I keep forgetting about is useful here:

    If you are near then end of a programme you forgot to record, just hit record anyway (I usually go for series record). If it's on again the youview box is pretty good at finding the next complete recording even (especially?) if it's on a channel which you have hidden.

    Obviously this won't work for everything and it's usually the stuff you can get on catchup anyway.

    That's OK. I've asked you before to give us a 'magic sign' which means nothing at the time and gives nothing away, but proves, in retrospect, that you really did have some secret foreknowledge that you were claiming.

    But no such sign was ever forthcoming.

    I guess we all have to live with little disappointments :-)

    NB: if there is such a box, I don't possess one, and nor do I know of one. This is no way stops me, or indeed the combined might of the contributors to Keith's Requested Enhancements thread, from conjecturing such an idealised paradigm PVR.

    This is commonly called 'the wisdom of crowds'.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • David BurgessDavid Burgess Member Posts: 1
    edited 7 February 2016, 10:12PM

    I have just started using BT Youview to see if it's good enough to replace Sky.  The most immediate and biggest disappointment is that when you hit record part way through a programme that you have been watching from the start, it only records from the moment you press record.  I can't believe it works like this!   

    Having moved from Sky I was surprised not to be able to record the buffer. Note that the Sky box I had had a 1 hour buffer rather than 2 in my Youview. Dont see why buffer content (or 1 hour of it!) cant be copied to HDD if its in solid state, but there is evidently some limitation. At end of my contract this will certainly be a consideration on whether to switch again.
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