[Discussion] BT software update 28.26.0

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  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,002 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 July 2017, 9:42PM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    Looks like pretty good error reporting to me. Normally, all you get is one tombstone, but in that screenshot, you get four :-)
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • GrundersGrunders Member Posts: 131
    edited 28 July 2017, 10:05PM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    I will agree with you Roy that getting an error is better than not.  However, lets look at the 4 elements that error gives:

    "search unavailable"
    Ok, this is sort of correct.  It was unable to do a search.

    But then...

    "We cant connect to the internet"
    That is not true.  As I detailed, there was no problem with the rest of the boxes functions (or even other searches) connecting and reacting to the internet feed.

    "For info visit support.youview.com"
    Ok, we have a problem, so this direction gives promise and could be useful.....

    "search YVM104"
    ....but no.  When you go to that website and that code all you get is a webpage offering a "fix" for it by saying "Service Unavailable" and no further information or elaboration.

    image


    What was the point of this page?!   About as useful as having the incorrect error on your screen in the first place and goes very well in the vein of the latest Youview debacle of its software upgrades. 

    What did we learn here?

    1,  Initial 'Search unavailable'  and the webpage 'Service unavailable' might be linked and literal in that the search service on the servers may well have been experiencing a problem at the time.

    2,  This goes hand in hand with my conclusion of what had actually happened (following the restoration of the service some time afterwards)

    3,  I'm probably wrong about (1) and the link because that webpage still says "service unvailable" now....even though the SEARCH facility is now working.

    ergo

    4,  The webpage content is for YMV104 is poorly thought out just as NextGen was - and still they have both been published seemingly without checking or any effective QA.

    5,  Youview are working towards minimising nasty surprises to its customers and users - they are working hard to remove the surprise element and make them ALWAYS expect something deficient so we are never disappointed when it happens.

    (Here it comes.....)
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,170 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 September 2017, 1:29PM
    Has anyone noticed any changes to their BT YouView box after downloading 28.26.0? 
    Whether that be a T1000, G4 or G5 UHD?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Brian958Brian958 Member Posts: 47
    edited 28 July 2017, 10:41PM
    Visionman said:

    Talking of musical chairs and that the grass may or may not be greener...
    Sky announced its annual operating profits today. Down 14%. Also, Sky's churn used to remain steady at 10.1%, then that increased to 11.2%. Its now at another all time high of 11.5%.
    Actual loss is down £97m, despite an overall package increase of £10 per mth. 
    The chief executive of Sky, Jeremy Darroch, has decided to cash in £11.5m worth of shares, as has Sky’s finance chief Andrew Griffith, at £6.8m.
    Netflix, YouView and Amazon Prime continue to report increased user numbers.
    Interesting times...

    To be fair I had little option, locked in for 18 months with a not insignificant discount, or pay the full amount until I had enough with the overpopulation of dross gathering in the guide.
    I'm gambling on hope for a far earlier resolution here. And with the added
    promise that I won't be out of pocket when you supply me with a brand new Freeview Box of my choice in 18 months it's a win win situation.

    BTW: I think you should know I've taken a screenshot.  

     
  • GrundersGrunders Member Posts: 131
    edited 28 July 2017, 10:42PM
    Visionman said:

    Has anyone noticed any changes to their BT YouView box after downloading 28.26.0? 
    Whether that be a T1000, G4 or G5 UHD?

    My bt box (dtr-t2100) is no different to when under the 27.50.0 offering.
  • zulu17zulu17 Member, Super User Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 July 2017, 11:04PM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    If I understand the sequence of events
    You selected search and typed in sequence Harry and it would seem at this point Youview search was working providing a list of options as you typed ..so this suggests to me that the Youview box was connected as how otherwise would the options be provided.

    when you selected the option Harry Brown you received the error messages you 'be listed implying that the search could not be done as no internet connection existed.

    So did the internet connection go down at that precise point in time or was an inaccurate cause identified. ( I thought the Youview boxes displayed a message if internet connection was lost and again when if was reconnected).
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,170 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 July 2017, 11:06PM
    Visionman said:

    Has anyone noticed any changes to their BT YouView box after downloading 28.26.0? 
    Whether that be a T1000, G4 or G5 UHD?

    My DTR T2100 experienced a significant speed improvement after downloading. 
    Which is what the update was for.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,170 ✭✭✭
    edited 28 July 2017, 11:08PM
    Visionman said:

    Has anyone noticed any changes to their BT YouView box after downloading 28.26.0? 
    Whether that be a T1000, G4 or G5 UHD?

    You keep on mentioning 27.50.0. What are you actually on?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • GrundersGrunders Member Posts: 131
    edited 28 July 2017, 11:18PM
    Visionman said:

    Has anyone noticed any changes to their BT YouView box after downloading 28.26.0? 
    Whether that be a T1000, G4 or G5 UHD?

    28.60.0. Previously 27.50. Previously oldgen (the good old days).

    I saw no speed improvement except the loading time of bbc iplayer app. On thr contrary I find navigation and response slower.
  • GrundersGrunders Member Posts: 131
    edited 28 July 2017, 11:30PM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    The internet did not go down at that precise point, no. (And yes you are right that if no internet was available it displays the message on both loss and reconnection.) It was a simple case of error and incorrect wording in the message.  I proved it by checking other internet-dependant features in the box (as stated in my post) before and after the event AND tested the same event three or four times.  (My job is Technical Applications Analyst and I do such testing as a profession: I well know how to recognise an issue and test it by approaching from different angles and repeating tests observing the individual conditions before summarising the potential causes.  Its a shame Youview didnt before they released this stuff.)
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,170 ✭✭✭
    edited 29 July 2017, 12:29AM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    I wouldn't bother. This user is clearly superior to everyone else. As such, it would be pointless offering clearly inferior advice. :(
    Even if its meant well... :( 
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Brian958Brian958 Member Posts: 47
    edited 29 July 2017, 12:34AM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    Clearly, sometimes it's wise not to overthink things too much.

    And no, I've not noticed any difference with 28.26. 
    There again, I only manually updated yesterday.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,170 ✭✭✭
    edited 29 July 2017, 3:29PM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    28.26.0 is a bridge for things to come. YouView often release updates and then release further ones that further stabilise and quicken said release. Not that anyone ever notices.

    NextGen is getting slaughtered atm. But it will  get better.
    Even with the future updates and feature re-introductions (and they are coming), they'll still get slaughtered, almost like the world has crashed in and its an absolute disaster.
    Ah well... such is the nature of social media fora.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,002 ✭✭✭
    edited 29 July 2017, 7:19AM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    Hi Grunders:-

    All that's coming at the moment is this....

    image

    which shows that I get a full page of diagnostic help there, which, seemingly, you don't.

    So first, I think, we need to figure out why.

    I've just captured this on my iPad.

    What are you looking at it with?

    What happens if you try it again?

    We can go into the transient nature of remote database lookup faults, and the dilemma of how to inform the user there has been one such without overwhelming him/her with technical information they cannot possibly make use of, and are possibly likely to be intimidated by, later on.

    But you must be familiar with this, if your day job brings you into contact with, or means you must exhibit consideration for, the general non-technical public, rather than other techies of the same ilk as us?

    NB: I'm not entirely sure you got the tombstone joke?

    STOP PRESS: Mystery solved. See that blue 'Fix for YVM104' on that page you reached, Grunders? It's a link, and you click it.

    But I agree the page is not ideal. If this simple step defeats a trained Technical Applications Analyst, what chance does an ordinary punter have here? :-)
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • GrundersGrunders Member Posts: 131
    edited 29 July 2017, 8:41AM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    NB: I'm not entirely sure you got the tombstone joke?
    Ah yes, now I get it - you are referring to the pictures on the screenshot of the 4 stones.  I was thinking more technical about the problem and response of the box at the time and saw your reference to tombstones more as a metaphore (as in when there's a problem it doesnt respond at all or responds by freezing/bricking as it has done the last couple of mornings)
     STOP PRESS: Mystery solved. See that blue 'Fix for YVM104' on that page you reached, Grunders? It's a link, and you click it. But I agree the page is not ideal. If this simple step defeats a trained Technical Applications Analyst, what chance does an ordinary punter have here? :-)
    Thanks Roy. Yes, the link is there and works.  But, as you say, if its not obvious to people then they are not going to use it.  (Like giving someone a key to a door but hiding the keyhole).  Hyperlinks in the old days were coloured for a reason (to make them stand out) and, if not, usually the words "click here" usually suffices.  Such pages need to cater for all levels of users and be made more obvious in their functionality.

    In any case, yes, that's that mystery solved.

    So now:  why did it give that incorrect error text in the first place (accepting that there was a temporary search failure of some sort).
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,002 ✭✭✭
    edited 29 July 2017, 9:51AM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    AAMOI, where did those onscreen tombstones come from? Was it just what you happened to be watching at the time, or are they a still from Harry Brown?
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • GrundersGrunders Member Posts: 131
    edited 29 July 2017, 10:28AM
    Grunders said:

    Consider this official feedback of a problem:

    Doing a search, (for this exampl, I input "Harry" and chose 'Harry Brown' as one of the suggestions), I get an error about 'no internet'.

    See screenshot:

    image


    And yet there is no problem with the internet.  (Here I am using the internet to write this report).  Furthermore, to prove the point, all apps on the Youview box launch ok (they wouldnt if there was no internet) and another choice (from "Harry" - choosing 'Dirty Harry') does show up correctly with On Demand options:



    image


    So there is definitely NOT an internet connection problem - but there are 2 problems:

    1, with the software/service randomly not being able to search and
    2, the error it gives is totally ambiguous and doesnt reflect the problem accurately.

    It was whatever was being broadcast at the time (I think an item on ITV news at the time - I wasnt pausing or anything).  There was no 'Harry Brown' playing.....as the search wasnt working to find it.  :-)
  • ManfredManfred Member Posts: 21
    edited 11 August 2017, 8:31PM

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.47.0 was fixed in 27.50.0

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.50.0 was fixed in 28.26.0

    So, all in all, I'm finally settling down with NextGen now... glad I stuck with it!

    Hopefully there'll be more goodies in the pipeline soon :o)

    Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum...

    :o(

  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,002 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 August 2017, 11:29PM
    Manfred said:

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.47.0 was fixed in 27.50.0

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.50.0 was fixed in 28.26.0

    So, all in all, I'm finally settling down with NextGen now... glad I stuck with it!

    Hopefully there'll be more goodies in the pipeline soon :o)

    Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum...

    :o(

    There's no update coming that will fix that..

    Though given what a lot of users found wished on them without a hint of warning, I am inclined to cut them a lot of slack :-)
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,170 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 August 2017, 11:29PM
    Manfred said:

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.47.0 was fixed in 27.50.0

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.50.0 was fixed in 28.26.0

    So, all in all, I'm finally settling down with NextGen now... glad I stuck with it!

    Hopefully there'll be more goodies in the pipeline soon :o)

    Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum...

    :o(

    "Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum.."
    You want to see the BT Community Forum. No, on second thoughts, don't.
    The same posters posting the same things over and over and over again. It doesn't make for good reading, and isn't healthy, either. The TalkTalk forum just shove everyone over here. :)
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,250 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 August 2017, 10:37PM
    Manfred said:

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.47.0 was fixed in 27.50.0

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.50.0 was fixed in 28.26.0

    So, all in all, I'm finally settling down with NextGen now... glad I stuck with it!

    Hopefully there'll be more goodies in the pipeline soon :o)

    Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum...

    :o(

    Really? Strange that the TalkTalk update threads here have far less traffic. Perhaps they are just a more contended/realistic/mature bunch?
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,250 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 August 2017, 10:38PM
    Manfred said:

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.47.0 was fixed in 27.50.0

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.50.0 was fixed in 28.26.0

    So, all in all, I'm finally settling down with NextGen now... glad I stuck with it!

    Hopefully there'll be more goodies in the pipeline soon :o)

    Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum...

    :o(

    Really? Strange that the TalkTalk update threads here have far less traffic. Perhaps they are just a more contented/realistic/mature bunch? ;
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,250 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 August 2017, 10:38PM
    Manfred said:

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.47.0 was fixed in 27.50.0

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.50.0 was fixed in 28.26.0

    So, all in all, I'm finally settling down with NextGen now... glad I stuck with it!

    Hopefully there'll be more goodies in the pipeline soon :o)

    Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum...

    :o(

    Really? Strange that the TalkTalk update threads here have far less traffic. Perhaps they are just a more contented/realistic/mature bunch? ;)
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,170 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 August 2017, 10:43PM
    Manfred said:

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.47.0 was fixed in 27.50.0

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.50.0 was fixed in 28.26.0

    So, all in all, I'm finally settling down with NextGen now... glad I stuck with it!

    Hopefully there'll be more goodies in the pipeline soon :o)

    Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum...

    :o(

    No, they literally direct anyone and everyone with complaints over here. Not that thats a bad thing.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • John C1John C1 Member Posts: 33
    edited 19 September 2017, 6:05AM
    My retail DTR-T2110 has received this update over the last couple of days despite this page https://support.youview.com/youview-box/software-updates/latest-software-versions not saying it is in progress.

    Just a heads up if anyone is interested.
  • SarahSarah Administrator Posts: 1,779 admin
    edited 10 August 2017, 1:06PM
    John C1 said:

    My retail DTR-T2110 has received this update over the last couple of days despite this page https://support.youview.com/youview-box/software-updates/latest-software-versions not saying it is in progress.

    Just a heads up if anyone is interested.

    Hi John,

    Thanks for raising this.

    This update went out yesterday to BT boxes so we'll update the table this afternoon :) 

    Sarah
  • Philip BaldryPhilip Baldry Member Posts: 3
    edited 10 August 2017, 10:52PM
    John C1 said:

    My retail DTR-T2110 has received this update over the last couple of days despite this page https://support.youview.com/youview-box/software-updates/latest-software-versions not saying it is in progress.

    Just a heads up if anyone is interested.

    What's happening with the non retail 1000 box seems to be the only one not getting this release as the retail box is shown as in progress
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,170 ✭✭✭
    edited 10 August 2017, 11:02PM
    John C1 said:

    My retail DTR-T2110 has received this update over the last couple of days despite this page https://support.youview.com/youview-box/software-updates/latest-software-versions not saying it is in progress.

    Just a heads up if anyone is interested.

    Perhaps an upgrade?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Brian958Brian958 Member Posts: 47
    edited 10 August 2017, 11:05PM
    John C1 said:

    My retail DTR-T2110 has received this update over the last couple of days despite this page https://support.youview.com/youview-box/software-updates/latest-software-versions not saying it is in progress.

    Just a heads up if anyone is interested.

    A hardware (box) upgrade, unless you're happy with the functionality of your current box.
  • ManfredManfred Member Posts: 21
    edited 11 August 2017, 8:48PM
    Manfred said:

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.47.0 was fixed in 27.50.0

    The behaviour that most irritated me about 27.50.0 was fixed in 28.26.0

    So, all in all, I'm finally settling down with NextGen now... glad I stuck with it!

    Hopefully there'll be more goodies in the pipeline soon :o)

    Actually, the behaviour that's vexing me now is the sometime lack of forbearance on this forum...

    :o(

    I was trying to show my mum how to make and watch a recording on her Virgin box for the first time this week... I have no idea which version she has but, OMG, how frustratingly complex the menus are when compared with YouView! Now I see why my mum will never understand Virgin, and doesn't want to either. NextGen, all is forgiven! ;o)

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