Why do you say that VM? I thought a reset was the standard response to bug collection?
Dave, your misapprehension is that somewhere in the YouView box is the original YouView software release.
There isn't. As each new software release is downloaded and installed successfully (or at least, what the box thinks is successfully), it deletes the old one, to make the space available for the next one, or any other purpose the box might have.
And YouView boxes always leave the factory with the current software release on them anyway, not the very first release there ever was.
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
Why do you say that VM? I thought a reset was the standard response to bug collection?
Ok I understand what you're saying, fair enough. I'm not arguing just trying to make sense of it. I was assuming that my box would revert to what it left the factory with rather than the first ever software version. So I now have to assume you're right.
My next question then is why would a reset help with an issue? I've seen a reset recommended many times on here so why?
My guess is that you are saying that the box has downloaded software in an incomplete manner and that relaoding this flawed download simply repeats the error? Is that correct?
Ok this is confusing me even more. If the box was bahaving fine before the update then why is it not fine now? You appear to be saying it's neither the hardware nor the software?
Why do you say that VM? I thought a reset was the standard response to bug collection?
There are some bugs - real 'actual issue in the released code' bugs - that go away with one of the resets.
Seems counter-intuitive but it happens.
e.g. if the bug is that some value in a certain location can get overwritten, such as by a buffer overflow, and that value controls some behaviour or other, then a reset that puts it back to its proper value will restore normal working.
How long for depends on how often the buffer overflow takes to happen again - a month, a day, a millisecond?
As you may know, I tend to recommend the Maintenance Mode Option 4 for many ills. Might work here, probably won't, but worth a try if you are willing.
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
Why do you say that VM? I thought a reset was the standard response to bug collection?
Software Updates on most things overwrites what was there before and hence once an update is done the old software is gone forever. The only way to return is to flash the old software over the top but this is not allowed if the version is older than the newer. Like most things a reboot is advised as programmes/memory etc can get a bit confused and a reboot will clear anything running in a background and revert to standard settings, this is standard practice for most things running code especially if they are not powered down anyway on a daily basis.
Edit- Roy has beat me to it and explained in better detail than my gobbledygook
People were reporting (pace jimb) very similar issues on prior releases.
I guess it's your turn in the barrel :-(
But it does increase the likelihood that an MM4 will shake things up in this area, for good or ill, until we get a release with the 'full or nearly full buffer' issues specifically addressed.
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
Your not going to like this and indeed, may not believe me, but what I am about to say is true - If you fill the buffer and then scroll all (or partially) the way back to play, but then decide to constantly trick play it, your box will, for want of a better phrase, go whacko. Its just the nature of the box. One can also get a very similar but very different behavior on trick playing a chase played subscription IP channel recording as well. For your tastes and for what you want it would be best just to use the BBC iPlayer.
I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
What do you mean by trick play? I don't generally rewind much at all, rather I press pause (from live) when I turn the tv on in the morning. I then press play maybe 10 mins later and watch, occasionally skipping forward by one min increments, and then back by the odd 15 secs if I spot something interesting. I do not scroll back 2 hours. But again, the box has never displayed this malfunctioning behaviour before. I haven't changed my habits, it's the box that's gone awry with this update.
As for using the iplayer, surely to God pausing live tv is one of the absolutely basic functions most people buy a pvr for in the first place? In my case pausing live tv and recording programmes were the two things that were paramount. All that iplayer and youtube gubbins is surely icing on top of basic functionality, however much people like a bit of icing.
Why do you say that VM? I thought a reset was the standard response to bug collection?
Thanks, you've both helped to a degree. So, just to clarify (sorry!) a factory reset does NOT mean resetting to the software version that it left the factory with?
I will try the MM4 reboot shortly once I work out how to save recordings.
You've had 3 different people try to explain to you the same thing. But your really not getting it. I don't think I can help you any further, but perhaps the other two can?
I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
Sorry Dave - "I then press play maybe 10 mins later and watch, occasionally skipping forward by one min increments, and then back by the odd 15 secs if I spot something interesting." Thats called trick play, where one flicks back and forth.
I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
You have to stick with a single channel for more than two hours to fill the buffer, and then do the light fandango with the forward and back keys to provoke it.
Most programmes aren't two hours; most people don't do the light fandango even if the programme is, or if they are watching programmes on one channel back to back.
But your use case is exactly that, cherry-pick BBC Breakfast (or Step Round Steph, as it is known in our house), so you hit it head on :-(
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
You've had 3 different people try to explain to you the same thing. But your really not getting it. I don't think I can help you any further, but perhaps the other two can?
Ok, sorry you've lost patience with me VM, but thank you for your assistance all the same.
Ok thanks Roy for your good natured help, Scott too. I.'ve done the MM4 reset and tried it again this am. Sadly the issue still remains, so it looks like I'm stuck with this God-awful UI that seems to now be slowly destroying my user experience until Youview get round to attending to the glitch in 2023.
You've had 3 different people try to explain to you the same thing. But your really not getting it. I don't think I can help you any further, but perhaps the other two can?
Not at all Dave! And thanks for the thanks. I'll try explaining it again a different way - its not a bug. The behavior your experiencing when the buffer is full and you then trick-play it, (FF/RW skip FF/RW) and then it goes awry is its normal behavior and was/is prevalent even on BT Vision boxes. So this problem has been around for over 10 years.
I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
You've had 3 different people try to explain to you the same thing. But your really not getting it. I don't think I can help you any further, but perhaps the other two can?
Ok well that seems fairly straight forward per se, but my box hasn't displayed this behaviour since I first started with it ithree years ago (soory for repeating that again). I really am having a hard time understanding how that isn't software related. Not being a programmer or anything related to this industry myself, can I ask if it's like certain boxes came out of the factory with a bit of a flaw in the build (hardware?) and others didn't, and that this particular version of the software (28.26) has triggered the flaw to manifest itself?
You've had 3 different people try to explain to you the same thing. But your really not getting it. I don't think I can help you any further, but perhaps the other two can?
OR are you saying that ALL boxes like mine are exhibiting this behaviour now but very few people use the box like this so haven't noticed?
Dave> "Ok well that seems fairly straight forward per se, but my box hasn't displayed this behaviour since I first started with it ithree years ago (soory for repeating that again). I really am having a hard time understanding how that isn't software related. Not being a programmer or anything related to this industry myself, can I ask if it's like certain boxes came out of the factory with a bit of a flaw in the build (hardware?) and others didn't, and that this particular version of the software (28.26) has triggered the flaw to manifest itself? OR are you saying that ALL boxes like mine are exhibiting this behaviour now but very few people use the box like this so haven't noticed?" Ah, now there you ask a 10 year old question... But I owe you an apology, as I haven't acknowledged the fact you've stated it didn't happen before but it does happen now.
I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
Your not going to like this and indeed, may not believe me, but what I am about to say is true - If you fill the buffer and then scroll all (or partially) the way back to play, but then decide to constantly trick play it, your box will, for want of a better phrase, go whacko. Its just the nature of the box. One can also get a very similar but very different behavior on trick playing a chase played subscription IP channel recording as well. For your tastes and for what you want it would be best just to use the BBC iPlayer.
Totally unfortunately... From information previously publicly posted, I know BT know about it, and have done for some number of years (pre-YouView) but I don't know if the YouView Team do. The behavior can range form severe (as you've experienced), to minor, to none at all, as the behavior can be (and often is) intermittent. And slightly different but very similar behavior can be had on IP Channels as well when pausing and then chase playing a live IP broadcast. Roys suggestion of using the BBC iPlayer is an excellent one, as its trick play facilities and FF/RW functions are far better than YouViews as it stands at the moment.
I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
I thought I'd come to an understanding earlier today that is was behaving like this when a channel had been on for more than two hours. I'd decided that when a programme was short and hadn't been on long then it behaved fine, but that a prog over two hours caused the gremlins. BBC News channel prog started at 11am today and the box is behaving fine at 12.30. But BBC Breakfast on BBC 1 starts at 6am and goes mischevous at 6.05 for instance. It's difficult to get your head round. I know this prob ceased to be interestig a while ago but God it's driving me nuts!!
Series recording of BBC Breakfast has at least kept me just this side of sane so far : )
Totally unfortunately... From information previously publicly posted, I know BT know about it, and have done for some number of years (pre-YouView) but I don't know if the YouView Team do. The behavior can range form severe (as you've experienced), to minor, to none at all, as the behavior can be (and often is) intermittent. And slightly different but very similar behavior can be had on IP Channels as well when pausing and then chase playing a live IP broadcast. Roys suggestion of using the BBC iPlayer is an excellent one, as its trick play facilities and FF/RW functions are far better than YouViews as it stands at the moment.
Intermittent could be the key word (see post below!).
I thought I'd come to an understanding earlier today that is was behaving like this when a channel had been on for more than two hours. I'd decided that when a programme was short and hadn't been on long then it behaved fine, but that a prog over two hours caused the gremlins. BBC News channel prog started at 11am today and the box is behaving fine at 12.30. But BBC Breakfast on BBC 1 starts at 6am and goes mischevous at 6.05 for instance. It's difficult to get your head round. I know this prob ceased to be interestig a while ago but God it's driving me nuts!!
Series recording of BBC Breakfast has at least kept me just this side of sane so far : )
Did you switch the box on at 6:00, or did you leave it on all night?
If the latter, then the buffer will be full two hours after switchon, and will stay full, until you switch it off or change channels.
It will not empty just because the programmes change on that channel.
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
I thought I'd come to an understanding earlier today that is was behaving like this when a channel had been on for more than two hours. I'd decided that when a programme was short and hadn't been on long then it behaved fine, but that a prog over two hours caused the gremlins. BBC News channel prog started at 11am today and the box is behaving fine at 12.30. But BBC Breakfast on BBC 1 starts at 6am and goes mischevous at 6.05 for instance. It's difficult to get your head round. I know this prob ceased to be interestig a while ago but God it's driving me nuts!!
Series recording of BBC Breakfast has at least kept me just this side of sane so far : )
Well you say that Roy and normally I'd take your word as gospel, but I'm sure I've seen another post saying that if another programme has started then a new programme buffer starts. The box was on all night btw as always.
I posted above about how (the box having been on for over 24 hours already) the BBC News channel went back to post-bug behaviour today at 12.30 when I sat down to watch it, ie it was skipping and rewinding with no problems whatsoever. I checked the programme start time, which was 11.00 so therefore buffer not full of the new programme, even though it had been on BBC News channel since anout 7.30.
Again, maybe "intermittent" is the appropriate word? I'd almost be happier if it was consistently whacko. Which is a now officially a technical word : )
I thought I'd come to an understanding earlier today that is was behaving like this when a channel had been on for more than two hours. I'd decided that when a programme was short and hadn't been on long then it behaved fine, but that a prog over two hours caused the gremlins. BBC News channel prog started at 11am today and the box is behaving fine at 12.30. But BBC Breakfast on BBC 1 starts at 6am and goes mischevous at 6.05 for instance. It's difficult to get your head round. I know this prob ceased to be interestig a while ago but God it's driving me nuts!!
Series recording of BBC Breakfast has at least kept me just this side of sane so far : )
Hi Dave. Firstly the buffer doesn't reset when a new programme starts. If you have been watching the same channel for more than two hours the buffer will be full no matter what.
Secondly I've been trying to narrow down when I experience the problem, and have been running a few tests. So far I've only had this problem happen on the BBC Breakfast programme. It is three and a quarter hours long. So maybe the problem is triggered when there is a programme in the buffer with a duration longer than two hours. Perhaps you could check out if that fits with what you are experiencing?
Comments
There isn't. As each new software release is downloaded and installed successfully (or at least, what the box thinks is successfully), it deletes the old one, to make the space available for the next one, or any other purpose the box might have.
And YouView boxes always leave the factory with the current software release on them anyway, not the very first release there ever was.
My next question then is why would a reset help with an issue? I've seen a reset recommended many times on here so why?
My guess is that you are saying that the box has downloaded software in an incomplete manner and that relaoding this flawed download simply repeats the error? Is that correct?
Seems counter-intuitive but it happens.
e.g. if the bug is that some value in a certain location can get overwritten, such as by a buffer overflow, and that value controls some behaviour or other, then a reset that puts it back to its proper value will restore normal working.
How long for depends on how often the buffer overflow takes to happen again - a month, a day, a millisecond?
As you may know, I tend to recommend the Maintenance Mode Option 4 for many ills. Might work here, probably won't, but worth a try if you are willing.
Like most things a reboot is advised as programmes/memory etc can get a bit confused and a reboot will clear anything running in a background and revert to standard settings, this is standard practice for most things running code especially if they are not powered down anyway on a daily basis.
Edit- Roy has beat me to it and explained in better detail than my gobbledygook
I guess it's your turn in the barrel :-(
But it does increase the likelihood that an MM4 will shake things up in this area, for good or ill, until we get a release with the 'full or nearly full buffer' issues specifically addressed.
If you fill the buffer and then scroll all (or partially) the way back to play, but then decide to constantly trick play it, your box will, for want of a better phrase, go whacko. Its just the nature of the box.
One can also get a very similar but very different behavior on trick playing a chase played subscription IP channel recording as well.
For your tastes and for what you want it would be best just to use the BBC iPlayer.
As for using the iplayer, surely to God pausing live tv is one of the absolutely basic functions most people buy a pvr for in the first place? In my case pausing live tv and recording programmes were the two things that were paramount. All that iplayer and youtube gubbins is surely icing on top of basic functionality, however much people like a bit of icing.
I will try the MM4 reboot shortly once I work out how to save recordings.
I don't think I can help you any further, but perhaps the other two can?
"I then press play maybe 10 mins later and watch, occasionally skipping forward by one min increments, and then back by the odd 15 secs if I spot something interesting."
Thats called trick play, where one flicks back and forth.
Most programmes aren't two hours; most people don't do the light fandango even if the programme is, or if they are watching programmes on one channel back to back.
But your use case is exactly that, cherry-pick BBC Breakfast (or Step Round Steph, as it is known in our house), so you hit it head on :-(
But think of it as putting the box in the software state it would be in, if it were fresh from the Factory today :-)
I'll try explaining it again a different way - its not a bug. The behavior your experiencing when the buffer is full and you then trick-play it, (FF/RW skip FF/RW) and then it goes awry is its normal behavior and was/is prevalent even on BT Vision boxes. So this problem has been around for over 10 years.
"Ok well that seems fairly straight forward per se, but my box hasn't displayed this behaviour since I first started with it ithree years ago (soory for repeating that again). I really am having a hard time understanding how that isn't software related. Not being a programmer or anything related to this industry myself, can I ask if it's like certain boxes came out of the factory with a bit of a flaw in the build (hardware?) and others didn't, and that this particular version of the software (28.26) has triggered the flaw to manifest itself?
OR are you saying that ALL boxes like mine are exhibiting this behaviour now but very few people use the box like this so haven't noticed?"
Ah, now there you ask a 10 year old question...
But I owe you an apology, as I haven't acknowledged the fact you've stated it didn't happen before but it does happen now.
From information previously publicly posted, I know BT know about it, and have done for some number of years (pre-YouView) but I don't know if the YouView Team do.
The behavior can range form severe (as you've experienced), to minor, to none at all, as the behavior can be (and often is) intermittent.
And slightly different but very similar behavior can be had on IP Channels as well when pausing and then chase playing a live IP broadcast.
Roys suggestion of using the BBC iPlayer is an excellent one, as its trick play facilities and FF/RW functions are far better than YouViews as it stands at the moment.
Series recording of BBC Breakfast has at least kept me just this side of sane so far : )
If the latter, then the buffer will be full two hours after switchon, and will stay full, until you switch it off or change channels.
It will not empty just because the programmes change on that channel.
I posted above about how (the box having been on for over 24 hours already) the BBC News channel went back to post-bug behaviour today at 12.30 when I sat down to watch it, ie it was skipping and rewinding with no problems whatsoever. I checked the programme start time, which was 11.00 so therefore buffer not full of the new programme, even though it had been on BBC News channel since anout 7.30.
Again, maybe "intermittent" is the appropriate word? I'd almost be happier if it was consistently whacko. Which is a now officially a technical word : )
Firstly the buffer doesn't reset when a new programme starts. If you have been watching the same channel for more than two hours the buffer will be full no matter what.
Secondly I've been trying to narrow down when I experience the problem, and have been running a few tests. So far I've only had this problem happen on the BBC Breakfast programme. It is three and a quarter hours long. So maybe the problem is triggered when there is a programme in the buffer with a duration longer than two hours.
Perhaps you could check out if that fits with what you are experiencing?