Why all the backward changes?

Hi to All,
            I know this has been talked about but I wanted to get my 2 penn'orth in. Who designed and implemented these terrible changes in the Epg and Recording screens on Youview. Is there a way to get rid of the banner that appears at switch on? I don't need it so can it be disabled? The recording screen is spoilt with all the thumbnails. If you are watching a programme that is one episode in several, when it stops you are told to 'Press Back to dismiss', when you are taken back to the recording screen, not the folder of the other episodes, (This is marginally better than it was, as it reverted to the Tv picture so you had to go back into the recording screen unless you pressed Stop). Not being able to hide channels is also a pain having to scroll through all the guide if channel browsing, although I believe that the Edit Channels option is returning. I am using a Humax Youview branded box (Ex BT) and TalkTalk so I wonder when/if this change will arrive for me. If you have got this far, thanks for reading.
Mark.

Comments

  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭
    edited 20 October 2017, 12:09PM
    Hi Mark - if you want a summary of the (backwards and forwards) changes in next gen you may like to see my first impressions post from almost a year ago. I've updated that over time to note what has then improved. Hopefully more will arrive before the year is out :)

    As for who decided this, that would be YouView and its stakeholders based on their understanding of what is needed to compete with other platforms, what the stakeholders and customer want, which in turn they would presumably base on information gathered, trials and customer satisfaction surveys.

    Whilst next gen has a number of short comings YouView would no doubt further point to the various awards it has won over the last year, its rising customer satisfaction figures, and its continuing user base growth.

    For me at least, next gen, on the latest version of software publicly available so having good MyTV journeys in and out of recordings and hide channels, is now largely fine. There are certainly things I would tweak and improve if it were my decision (be they things from my first impressions post or from the longer standing consolidated list of improvements and feature requests) and I would be keen to have done some of them long before now. YouView of course will have their own confidential roadmap so we will all just need to hang on for the ride or jump off when a suitable platform takes our fancy :wink:
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Keith even with the latest update it is still a shadow of what even a humble DTRT-1000 could do in June 2016.  So much has been lost and not restored.  I'd pay money to get back to that June 2016 position.

    However I don't believe anyone at YouView planned the serious functional degrades, just didn't have a proper Specify ->Design->Test system/software design process to properly support the Next Gen 'from scratch' development.




  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭
    edited 20 October 2017, 1:19PM
    I'm certainly not defending YouView's approach :)

    Were it my choice I would have expected to bring forward much more of the functionality of old gen and had all that in place before launch. Given where they appear to be though it would seem such an approach would mean next gen would not have even launched yet. That might please some, would probably not bother many, and would presumably be an issue for others. Presumably YouView consider it was not acceptable to appear to stand still for another year (and probably more) whilst maintaining old gen and developing next gen further.

    It is perhaps  a small positive though that YouView do engage with us, and are happy to provide such a forum on which one can be in no doubt of the changes that have taken place given my day zero post and long standing lists which are there for anyone to see as to what the platform is missing. Now if there were another platform that did more of what I wanted at a price that suited me I would of course be off to that without a look back :wink:

    In the meantime what I have works well enough for me almost all the time (although I really would like the menu bar not to appear at all when I turn on, would like to be able to jump to a particular minute in a recording, would like to see more info on the tiles (or have a list option with more info), would like the recording clash resolution suggestions feature back, and in my wilder dreams would like to see intelligent padding as an option). That said whether it works well for me or not it does not work well enough for some/many right now and I will continue to press that point as and when I can with YouView (in a friendly and encouraging way of course) :)
  • @Keith said: "I really would like the menu bar not to appear at all when I turn on, would like to be able to jump to a particular minute in a recording, would like to see more info on the tiles (or have a list option with more info), would like the recording clash resolution suggestions feature back, and in my wilder dreams would like to see intelligent padding as an option".

    I think you've hit the nail on the head for what most people would like to see returning from Old Gen or making a debut in Next Gen.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,377 ✭✭✭
    edited 20 October 2017, 8:46PM
    @SteveK

    YouView are now developing using Agile methodologies, where a rough and incomplete outline of the requirements is developed, and stepwise refined and extended in two-week sprints.

    The trouble is that nobody told them the interim results from the sprints were only supposed to be released to the stakeholders, not the entire user base  :D
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Roy said:
    @SteveK

    YouView are now developing using Agile methodologies, where a rough and incomplete outline of the requirements is developed, and stepwise refined and extended in two-week sprints.

    The trouble is that nobody told them the interim results from the sprints were only supposed to be released to the stakeholders, not the entire user base  :D
    There's nothing wrong with Agile Development (aka incremental development) per se.  I have frequently advocated it as a development method where customers and/or the market doesn't have a real understanding of what is wanted or how they will use it.  

    But Next Gen started with a solid idea of what people wanted and it was not any descope of what was already working and in use by customers who had legitimate expectations such would be protected.  This requirement definition and the derived test scripts should have been captured in some configured records however if so it doesn't appear as if any of the Next Gen development team used such.

    Perhaps YouView could tell just what recognised external accreditations their development process has. 


  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,266 ✭✭✭
    Then ask them -
    [email protected]
    You'll get a reply.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    edited 24 October 2017, 11:39AM
    Visionman said:
    Then ask them -
    [email protected]
    You'll get a reply.
    I'm still waiting for the email they YouView  development promised me 'shortly' on Monday

    Best not overload them
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,377 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 October 2017, 9:46AM
    @SteveK

    Actually, I think there is a great deal wrong with Agile development - a legitimate, but minor and controllable, issue with waterfall and other traditional development methods has been escalated to become the entire methodology, and the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.

    Its what, in the early days, we would have called ‘winging it’, and been rightly censored for.

    But this is all a different issue, really.

    The sensible thing, and what experience has taught me is possibly the only sensible thing, when replatforming, is a ‘lift and shift’, in which the existing functionality is reimplemented on the new platform as completely unchanged as is possible.

    But YouView didn’t do this; they tried to rewrite it for tiles, and a few other things, at the same time. And, I think, overwhelmed themselves.

    And so, in an ironic twist of fate, YouView find themselves playing catch-up, something only their boxes are supposed to do  :p
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Yep many implementations of Agile leave much to be desired because it's used as an excuse for poor design discipline.  

    And of course YouView have specifically rejected the option of offering users the ability to go back to that June 2016 build (jump to, working pause buffers, lists, text etc - ah memories).  All because, and there is no nice way to say this, they decided to immorally and quite possibly illegally press gang their entire customer base to be beta testers for offerings for prospective new customers.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,377 ✭✭✭
    Immoral, no doubt - the ethical thing to do would have been to at least give its users the choice, with a final release of OldGen which allowed users to turn off updates if they so wished, and fair warning about what was coming.

    With the quid pro quo that the only support they would get if they stayed was whatever the Community could provide, and that OldGen was now frozen.

    But possibly even a way of backtracking if they found NextGen not to their liking.

    I think YouView could have had a legal case to answer; it would turn on whether the apparently fair term in the T&Cs we all accepted, regarding YouView’s right to update the product, became an unfair term given the update they actually provided.

    Or just possibly if it could be argued that ‘We may make changes to the Terms of Use and to the YouView Service and we will get your consent where necessary‘ has been breached because that consent was not sought from you.

    Which would make a lot of lawyers very rich arguing about ‘necessary’ and ‘deemed consent’ and/or about ‘duty of care’. But the sums of money involved for users are very small, and the only satisfactory outcome of such a challenge would be if YouView were forced to make OldGen generally available again. Which they could easily do, at minor inconvenience to themselves, if such a case were ever mounted.

    You are though, quite wrong about the press-ganging being for the benefit of new customers. That would be a very speculative exercise for comparatively small financial returns.

    As I have said before, follow the money....


    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • jimbjimb Member, Super User Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:

    ...The sensible thing, and what experience has taught me is possibly the only sensible thing, when replatforming, is a ‘lift and shift’, in which the existing functionality is reimplemented on the new platform as completely unchanged as is possible...
    @Roy you obviously speak from experience about this.
    But I would have thought that with a product as well developed as YouView had become it would be blindingly obvious to anyone that the first thing to do in the move to HTML5 was to do a direct 'lift and shift'.

    Almost everyday I look at how NextGen does something and think "well OldGen did that so much better".
     :( 
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Roy said:
     . . .You are though, quite wrong about the press-ganging being for the benefit of new customers. That would be a very speculative exercise for comparatively small financial returns.

    As I have said before, follow the money....


    YouView make their money out of further sales of YouView boxes so once they believed that some sort of Next Gen was needed to fuel those sales they needed a large test base

    As for legality I will PM you
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,266 ✭✭✭
    Everyone loves an internet lawyer. <groans>
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • dave3dave3 Member Posts: 186

    Keith   --  is your list - consolidated list of improvements and feature requests) recognised / reviewed  by the the Youview team?

  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Visionman said:
    Everyone loves an internet lawyer. <groans>
    DNFTT
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭
    dave3 said:

    Keith   --  is your list - consolidated list of improvements and feature requests) recognised / reviewed  by the the Youview team?

    The list is indeed well known by key people and others within YouView. It is far from the sole basis of conversations I have with them from time to time but needless to say I do try to remind them at times of some of the things it contains that they could perhaps turn their attention to. I would not of course expect the list to be part of their formal processes and roadmap production although given they are well aware of it one would like to think they do occasionally refresh their memory of its content from time to time. Ultimately though YouView have their own very clear views of where they are going, what to prioritise and why they think that is most appropriate. I would likely disagree with some of their priorities and would encourage them to also give a little more attention to some smaller matters that I might think could be quickly done and would give a more polished and/or flexible system. They only have finite resource though and one might take the view they are playing catch-up more often than not, even if that is catch-up with themselves and old gen at present :)
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,266 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 October 2017, 9:34PM
    LOL.
    I've been informed they are well aware of it and indeed reference it from time to time. 
    And will include what they can, where they can, with where they are going.
    Re their priorities - one has to give consideration that they are a commercial organisation for and of a mass market box, which can be frustrating at times.
    But I'm sure you'll talk to them about this soon. :)
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,377 ✭✭✭
    edited 21 October 2017, 9:55PM
    jimb said:
    @Roy you obviously speak from experience about this.
    But I would have thought that with a product as well developed as YouView had become it would be blindingly obvious to anyone that the first thing to do in the move to HTML5 was to do a direct 'lift and shift'.

    Almost everyday I look at how NextGen does something and think "well OldGen did that so much better".
    :( 
    I do. Three successful ones, two of them where we were called in only after an attempt to do something more ambitious went horribly wrong (millions of dollars horribly wrong) and just one who saw the ‘blindingly obvious’ from the start.

    At least NextGen is not an abject failure.

    But nonetheless, YouView’s public stance on NextGen puts me in mind of Igor, in Young Frankenstein:-

    Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: You know, I'm a rather brilliant surgeon. Perhaps I can help you with that hump. 

    Igor: What hump?

    And for all I know, this is their private stance as well  :#

    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • dave3dave3 Member Posts: 186
    Keith said:
    Ultimately though YouView have their own very clear views of where they are going, what to prioritise and why they think that is most appropriate. I would likely disagree with some of their priorities and would encourage them to also give a little more attention to some smaller matters that I might think could be quickly done and would give a more polished and/or flexible system.

    Do they publish their priorities?

    In the above how do we change the “I” to “we the community”?  -  We the community would like these top 3 irritations to be address as a matter of priority. As a community we need to be able to vote on our top 3 irritations (low lying fruit) and ask for them to be addresses, but I don’t know how you’d organize the vote.


  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭
    dave3 said:
    Keith said:
    Ultimately though YouView have their own very clear views of where they are going, what to prioritise and why they think that is most appropriate. I would likely disagree with some of their priorities and would encourage them to also give a little more attention to some smaller matters that I might think could be quickly done and would give a more polished and/or flexible system.

    Do they publish their priorities?

    In the above how do we change the “I” to “we the community”?  -  We the community would like these top 3 irritations to be address as a matter of priority. As a community we need to be able to vote on our top 3 irritations (low lying fruit) and ask for them to be addresses, but I don’t know how you’d organize the vote.
    Hi @dave3 - no, in general YouView do not say/publish what their priorities are/what they are working on. Usually the first one will hear is when something is launched/released. In a small departure from that, perhaps in part based on the community feedback, they did say many months ago that they were working on discover, action panels, and hide channels. So far we have only recently seen the last of these. It is thus rather disappointing that so much time has passed and so little has changed from what one can see publicly :(

    As for the "I"s in the above, when I talk to YouView I tell them what I think, but I base what I say on my wider assessment of what the community is calling for. So that may mean I could be pushing them on why discover is not yet back (a feature a number of people have clearly fed back via this community that they are very disappointed was missing from next gen) even though it may make very little difference to me personally.

    Ultimately though YouView are in control and they do not drive their development by a wider community committee like approach. If there were a better alternative platform, or one that was suitably open to such input that might mean it could become better quite quickly, then no doubt I and others would be over there to drive some further suitable healthy competition which might benefit 2 platforms and ultimately the customer.

    Lastly note we did run 2 unofficial surveys for community members  (see results 1see results 2) around feature requests a number of years ago. Despite the interesting results one might argue it ultimately had very little influence on YouView. Furthermore the old forum system had likes for each of the idea topics and one could easily order those to give some gauge of what some people most want. A counter argument though would be the community here is a very narrow slice of the total YouView userbase and perhaps any vote here is thus not truly representative of what the masses want most (e.g. DLNA was one of the top ideas but is not necessarily the most likely top need for the wider user base, in contrast another top idea was channel list reordering which whilst not something everyone wants is much more mainstream in its likely userbase).

    One could run a survey now (potentially within this new forum) but I might argue that it is not really needed and that there are some very obvious small things YouView should be working on that are all too evident from the feedback on the forum. Public progress over the last year could be interpreted as a failure by them to see the obvious, some fundamental problems that were thus of a higher priority, or simply that what we see here does not always align with what their stakeholders most want (2 of which account for the bulk of the user base so would presumably drive YouView based on a need to continue to grow their userbase and profits).
  • dave3dave3 Member Posts: 186

    Keith  

    OK so we’re  the minnows and the ISPs are the big fish. They’re the ones competing in the market place, hence the move to programme  tiles in MyTV recordings – copying Netflix etc. When browsing Netflix the split screen with 9 tiles in the bottom half and the info for the selected items in the top half, works ok.  Personally I think there could be an extra row of tiles, but this compares to browsing the EPG and the EPG is busy enough with days, hours and many rows channels, plus it has obvious programmes such as news etc.  

    And now to open a can of worms. -  I personally believe the MyTV list of recording on the youview app    (small tiles with the text to the side) is far easier on the eye – with some tweaks this could become very slick – even better than sky (the last time I saw it) and it servers a different purpose to browsing in Netflix.  We’re all entitled to our opinion if you think this suggestion is worthy, please add to your list, but could you also consider the following changes  to Item 19 Scheduled Recordings: Show the dates, and start and end times in both  the Youview and Remote App scheduled recording lists {see [1]}  

                

  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭
    Thanks @dave3 - I've updated items 19 and 116 in the consolidated list of improvements and feature requests to capture those comments :)
  • dave3dave3 Member Posts: 186

    Clash Management

    Keith -  there’s seems to be 3 items in the list of improvements directly relating to clash management

    23 Scheduled Recordings: Even better recording clash resolution {see [1]}

    55 Prompt to record or watch HD version from all SD channels with corresponding HD versions, i.e. not just BBC (note more a broadcaster EPG data issue than a direct feature YouView should implement); Also offer options in the guide to easily jump to HD/SD and +1 channel variants {see [1][2]29/11/2016 next gen update no longer has this feature for any channel

    63 Additional recording clash resolution options via retrospective on-demand recording and/or bookmarks {see [1]}

    Whilst item 23 is all-encompassing, it would be easy to fall into the trap of only looking at what to do with the programme your trying to add. Clash management needs to also look at alternatives for the programmes that are already set to record. This could involve moving an existing recording to another time slot (+1 or to a repeat or introduce a new function to set reminder to watch from on-demand)

     In the short term can the system be programed to delete the scheduled recording of a single episode within a series?

           If so, the delete of a scheduled recording of an episode needs to prompt confirmation –                

                        Delete single episode  / Delete whole series

             Or. if not, then prompt confirmation –

                      Delete whole series / Move series to  ……….. list of “also on” (as displayed in Youview app.)

     How important to the users is clash management as a subject 1(low)   – 10 (astronomically)?

    I rate it at 10

    How important to the users is each of the above requirements 1(low)   – 10 (astronomically)?

    I rate the moving of a series as 7

    How well does Sky  / Freeview handle clash management – better, same or worse than youview?

    If implemented by Youview would you / the industry rate this as a differentiator 1(shrapnel)   – 10 (clincher)?

     As indicated in item 26 the above functions need to also be available on the remote app – but so do a lot of other things so it’s probably best to keep remote app requirements separate.

     Clash management is a big subject and there are some other items in the list that have an indirect consequential link to the subject … more to come.

  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Steve K said:
    Visionman said:
    Then ask them -
    [email protected]
    You'll get a reply.
    I'm still waiting for the email they YouView  development promised me 'shortly' on Monday

    Best not overload them
    Two updates to that post ^

    First (as marked up) I clarify that it was not YouView support I was waiting for a reply from.  Apologies if it came over that way

    Second the development team have now just emailed (not about that specific point which I suggest we've moved on from)
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,266 ✭✭✭
    edited 25 October 2017, 12:11AM
    Deleted. Shucks.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
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