[Discussion] BT software update 29.27.0

1234689

Comments

  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭

    Visionman said:
    No user should have a go at another for their ire. As we are all just users.
    I am touched by the cloaked William’s exaggerated impressions of what I might be able to accomplish for him though, and sorry to disappoint him on that score  :'(
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 November 2017, 8:33AM

    Visionman said:
    Steve K said:
    Keith said: . . .If we as users/customers are not happy though we can all vote with our feet/wallet/contracts and go elsewhere accordingly at a time that suits us :)
    That's to miss the point.  Users' machines were degraded (ie damaged) by either wilful or negligent action by YouView that they have been extremely remiss in rectifying while apparently focusing instead on gaining awards for the innovative way this damage was done.  To just in effect say "well throw it away then" just makes it worse.  
    No, I completely disagree with everything you're saying. See previous posts on this thread for pointers.  
    One never quite can disagree with everything Steve K says; deep beneath the layers of Sun-journalism-type spin, misinterpretation, and agenda serving,  almost out of sight and deep down beyond the reach either of Mary Archer or Rudyard Kipling, there is usually a tiny nugget of truth, albeit twisted and distorted out of all recognition, like the few healthy cells at the centre of a huge malign tumour.

    Though for all practical purposes, there might as well not be.

    Do you really believe all this stuff you are peddling, @Steve K, or is it just for effect? 

    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • Of course it's only for effect, and always has been. It's the same thing day and daily either here or on BT Care. There's no way you could believe him to be serious although there are folk who unfortunately can't be happy and can only ever complain about stuff.
    As it stands, Youview is what it is, I've said before there are things I'd like to see back, as would many others, but until they do I am more than content to use my Youview box as a pvr and conduit for the players/apps on offer to me. There are alternatives out there for anyone who isn't happy with things as of now, and although that may not be a route some want to take, it may be the only one if it means a happier and more contented life and tv viewing experience.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    Robert said:
    Of course it's only for effect, and always has been. It's the same thing day and daily either here or on BT Care. There's no way you could believe him to be serious although there are folk who unfortunately can't be happy and can only ever complain about stuff.
    As it stands, Youview is what it is, I've said before there are things I'd like to see back, as would many others, but until they do I am more than content to use my Youview box as a pvr and conduit for the players/apps on offer to me. There are alternatives out there for anyone who isn't happy with things as of now, and although that may not be a route some want to take, it may be the only one if it means a happier and more contented life and tv viewing experience.
    Yes, the drawbacks are that whereas we all probably take a somewhat jaundiced view of how NextGen got launched in the state it was in, and how slowly this is being rectified, the extreme views we are seeing here force us into defending what we might otherwise think was the indefensible from the calumnies being unjustifiably heaped on YouView’s heads  :s
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,140 ✭✭✭
    edited 7 November 2017, 11:47PM
    Roy said:
    Yes, the drawbacks are that whereas we all probably take a somewhat jaundiced view of how NextGen got launched in the state it was in, and how slowly this is being rectified, the extreme views we are seeing here force us into defending what we might otherwise think was the indefensible from the calumnies being unjustifiably heaped on YouView’s heads  :s
    Extreme views are often posted on open social fora. They are rarely true.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    edited 13 November 2017, 12:25PM
    Well Roy and Robert my agenda has always been the same

    I want my YouView functionality restored as was and was told by YouView that this forum was the place to raise issues.    I understand why some wish to attack my and others posts that raise points of criticism of YouView but frankly it is they that need to examine their need to attack those that don't want to be part of some magical mystery tour to Next Gen.

    We just want our YouView boxes to work as well as they once did. And we want it now.  Please say why that is supposedly so unreasonable.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,140 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 November 2017, 1:02AM
    No one attacks anyone on here. Please remember that.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 November 2017, 8:36AM
    Steve K said:
    Well Roy and Robert my agenda has always been the same

    I want my YouView functionality restored as was and was told by YouView that this forum was the place to raise issues.    I understand why some wish to attack my and others posts that raise points of criticism of YouView but frankly it is they that need to examine their need to attack those that don't want to be part of some magical mystery tour to Next Gen.

    We just want our YouView boxes to work as well as they once did. And we want it now.  Please say why that is supposedly so unreasonable.
    Nothing unreasonable in the above, except the spin you put on our disagreement with the wilder and more extreme pronouncements you have couched your criticisms with.

    But if you want to know what reasonable really looks like, reread Keith’s zero-day posting about NextGen, which quietly and accurately lays down all the issues with it, and is all the more effective for its complete lack of vitriol.

    Oh, and Coalhouse Walker had reasonable demands as well. I doubt you will express yours as extremely as him  :p but it does point up the distinction between the reasonable demand and the unreasonable expression of it :D  


    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    Re Zero day posting. We are still waiting for YouView to act on the issues raised in any positive way. Why so long. Do they intend to keep the promse to restore removed functionality, and when?
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    dreamtime said:
    Re Zero day posting. We are still waiting for YouView to act on the issues raised in any positive way. Why so long. Do they intend to keep the promse to restore removed functionality, and when?
    What do you think having a new set of testers would achieve?
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    @Roy What do you think is taking so long to restore functionality removed and keeping promissed made?
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 November 2017, 10:52AM
    dreamtime said:
    @Roy What do you think is taking so long to restore functionality removed and keeping promissed made?
    @dreamtime What do you think having a new set of testers would achieve?
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    @Roy in answer to your question, more than has so far been achieved. Now perhaps you will have the courtesy to answer mine. @Roy What do you think is taking so long to restore functionality removed and keeping promisses made?
  • @dreamtime wrote "more than has so far been achieved".
    You obviously don't understand the testing process. You can only test what you are presented with by whomever you are doing said testing for. The triallists aren't the software developers. Maybe if they were things would be different but that of course is not the case. You are bound to be aware by now of all the things that have been requested since Next Gen appeared, this forum is full of ideas and wished for enhancements. The problem is, if Youview don't see fit to include them in beta software for anyone in their test group then neither you, me, or anyone else can test it. The same goes for any business putting things out to a test group.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    dreamtime said:
    @Roy in answer to your question, more than has so far been achieved.

    Now perhaps you will have the courtesy to answer mine.

     @Roy What do you think is taking so long to restore functionality removed and keeping promises made?
    Indeed, as we seem to be debating properly again.

    To your first answer, I remain puzzled by the disconnect between you claiming to know about software development, and the ignorance of it you display.

    Testers can only test what the developers develop. Most of YouView’s testing is highly automated. That’s why regression errors are almost unheard of. The only manual testing needed is of the new stuff, and I doubt there is any bottleneck there.

    At a guess - and it is only a guess, as if I knew the answer I would not be able to tell you - developing in HTML5 for NextGen is no easier a ride than developing in Flash etc. for OldGen.

    Releasing seems a great deal easier, judging by the new ‘little and often’ releases we get, though. Which, paradoxically, may feel slower than the OldGen way of infrequent big releases; but adding it all up, it probably isn’t slower on NextGen, even if it isn’t quicker.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    @Roy Thank you for your reply. This forum would work well with honest replies, such as the one you have given above. Much better than the replies that just support YouView no matter what. The bottom line is that it should not take this long to return the hidden channel facility as promissed if sufficient resource was deployed to make good on the promise.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    dreamtime said:
    @Roy Thank you for your reply. This forum would work well with honest replies, such as the one you have given above. Much better than the replies that just support YouView no matter what. The bottom line is that it should not take this long to return the hidden channel facility as promised if sufficient resource was deployed to make good on the promise.
    In software development, this is known as the 'take nine pregnant women and make a baby in one month' fallacy :p
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:

    In software development, this is known as the 'take nine pregnant women and make a baby in one month' fallacy :p
    A fair point, if one takes 9 lost features/feature requests then it is not entirely fair to say we should be seeing a new one every month since next gen launched, however, perhaps it is reasonably fair to say given we are now over 11 months beyond when next gen launched that a little more should ideally have been delivered by now (although that statement does not entirely fairly take into account that next gen did not land for all on the first day and the roll out only completed some 7 or so months later). For some sufficient progress is thus overdue and delivery of more should be induced asap if at all possible :)

    Time is running out on the first year since next gen launched (the TalkTalk roll out began on 29/11/2016), hopefully we will get some (early) Christmas presents in the form of the promised return of action panels and discover. Beyond that it would be nice to see a few more of the day zero lost features and issues crossed off in the near future (and/or some useful new features and players) :)

  • Thank you @Roy for more eloquently posting what I was trying to say. Anyone who knows anything about software development and the testing process would've already known what you have said. At the end of the day, it wouldn't matter one jot if there were 10,000 triallists, they could still only trial and give feedback on what they are being presented with by the development team, therefore nothing could be gained no matter who's doing the testing.

    As for improvements, there can be no doubting they have been slow to come to fruition, and that has let to much frustration amongst most users, myself included. There's a long way to go and unfortunately there's nothing any of us can do to speed things up. If we could we would :)
  • dreamtimedreamtime Member Posts: 205
    Only goes to show that YouView were great at smashing things but not very good at putting it together again.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,140 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    dreamtime said:
    @Roy in answer to your question, more than has so far been achieved.

    Now perhaps you will have the courtesy to answer mine.

     @Roy What do you think is taking so long to restore functionality removed and keeping promises made?
    At a guess - and it is only a guess, as if I knew the answer I would not be able to tell you - developing in HTML5 for NextGen is no easier a ride than developing in Flash etc. for OldGen.
    Its my impression that the YouView team were deflected from their initial statement release of a return of and for Hide Channels, Action Panel and Discover by the majority negative reaction to the MyTV user journey and weren't wrong to do so. And as Roy has previously said, they've pretty much nailed it now.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    A question:  did the triallists give YouView any encouragement to release NextGen knowing that it would remove functionality like Jump to Play point, hide channels etc?

    It's hard to believe the triallists wouldn't have noticed and reported these functional issues IF that is YouView ever ran beta tests with Next Gen.  


  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,140 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 November 2017, 10:06PM
    Have you not read all the previous posts? As stated above by a few users, trialists only test, not make decisions.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    edited 8 November 2017, 10:25PM
    Steve K said:
    A question:  did the triallists give YouView any encouragement to release NextGen knowing that it would remove functionality like Jump to Play point, hide channels etc?

    It's hard to believe the triallists wouldn't have noticed and reported these functional issues IF that is YouView ever ran beta tests with Next Gen.  
    As I have said before, regarding your first point, follow the money.

    Do you think the triallists, even collectively, would have been able to raise enough dosh to bribe YouView into, reluctantly, releasing NextGen before it was ready, and before YouView wanted to release it?

    Regarding your second point, the wise might make certain deductions from the speed, accuracy, and comprehensiveness of Keith’s zero-day summation of NextGen, good and bad.

    But if your prejudices blind you to what might be the truth of these things, and you want to go haring off up a series of false trails - well, by all means knock yourself out  B)
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,140 ✭✭✭
    Roy said:
    Steve K said:
    A question:  did the triallists give YouView any encouragement to release NextGen knowing that it would remove functionality like Jump to Play point, hide channels etc?

    It's hard to believe the triallists wouldn't have noticed and reported these functional issues IF that is YouView ever ran beta tests with Next Gen.  
    Regarding your second point, the wise might make certain deductions from the speed, accuracy, and comprehensiveness of Keith’s zero-day summation of NextGen, good and bad.
    You know, I'm surprised not one person has picked up on that, as Keiths Zero Day list is both comprehensive and impressive.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Steve KSteve K Member Posts: 295
    Visionman said:
    Roy said:
    Steve K said:
    A question:  did the triallists give YouView any encouragement to release NextGen knowing that it would remove functionality like Jump to Play point, hide channels etc?

    It's hard to believe the triallists wouldn't have noticed and reported these functional issues IF that is YouView ever ran beta tests with Next Gen.  
    Regarding your second point, the wise might make certain deductions from the speed, accuracy, and comprehensiveness of Keith’s zero-day summation of NextGen, good and bad.
    You know, I'm surprised not one person has picked up on that, as Keiths Zero Day list is both comprehensive and impressive.
    Well yes but we know you recently said you gave an opinion (right imho) that it was better to go with a limited hide channels function now rather than wait for the ideal.

    And that's what I meant by 'encouragement'  IE if YouView had asked was it a good idea to go with Next Gen despite these issues, were they given any suggestion by triallists that was better than waiting for a Next Gen with no functions deleted?

    I'd hope the answer is a clear "No!" was communicated.  And this is not trolling, the topic has been raised by others as to whether the mass of normal users should have confidence in the trials programme and without such an answer it's hard to see we can have.
  • Youview, or any other provider, wouldn't ask its trialists if it was a good idea or not to release a full product. In trials of any nature you are only asked to give feedback on what's being tested, not to pass off on the finished product. That task falls wholly to the developers. Testers or anyone else involved have no say on that end of things.
    There is no reason not to have confidence that the trials programme is being properly conducted in the same way as any other trials programme. Another major provider which is trialing new products at present is conducting its tests and liaising with its testers in exactly the same way. It's fairly standard procedure.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,140 ✭✭✭
    edited 9 November 2017, 2:38AM
    That question has already been answered twice. Or do you only read your own posts?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭
    edited 9 November 2017, 8:38AM
    dreamtime said:
    @Roy Thank you for your reply. This forum would work well with honest replies, such as the one you have given above. 
    Honesty needs to be mutual. And requires you to admit that you don’t know the first thing about software development, let alone claiming to work in it.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭

    Visionman said:
    You know, I'm surprised not one person has picked up on that, as Keith’s Zero Day list is both comprehensive and impressive.
    Certainly, I have mentioned it before, and I expect the sensible people here will have picked up on it, and nodded sagely, but felt no need to comment.

    But I also expect the sensible people will have had a good awareness of how the trials process works anyway....
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
Sign In or Register to comment.