Annoying new guide

2

Comments

  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    Not once have i seen this "feature" advertised, this conversation here is the very first time i have heard a use for it.
    Removing it and just having one week on the screen would very clearly create space to add other features, but very clearly everyone else uses it, so as you say it will go nowhere.

    Still it would be very easy to redesign the guide to bring back all the old features we used to have.
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 508 ✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 2:00PM
    Davey23 said:
    Not once have i seen this "feature" advertised, this conversation here is the very first time i have heard a use for it.
    Removing it and just having one week on the screen would very clearly create space to add other features, but very clearly everyone else uses it, so as you say it will go nowhere.

    Still it would be very easy to redesign the guide to bring back all the old features we used to have.

    The backwards EPG feature has been very heavily advertised as one of YouView’s key selling point since day one. It’s mentioned in the manual that comes with the box and it has featured in pretty much every advertising campaign they’ve run. For example see here where it says 7 day catch up and in the promo video at 23 seconds in it says 15 day YouView guide https://tst02-www.youview.com/# or better yet watch this older promo video at 50 seconds https://youtu.be/e_XrDoJIVso. I’m not saying that it’s a great feature or that everyone uses it - as I mentioned in my previous post I very rarely use it myself - and you obviously weren’t aware of it, but to suggest that the feature hasn’t been advertised is incorrect.

    I agree that with you that a full synopsis and the mini tv should be featured in the EPG and it could be easily done. But getting rid of the backwards EPG would not free up any additional screen real estate. Why? Becuase you would still need the horizontal bar for the forward EPG, it would just have fewer days on it.


  • Stevef_fr8ysStevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 644 ✭✭
    Davey23 said:
    I am at a loss as to how you are finding a backwards guide useful.
    I turn on my tv, put on the guide and set any programs i want to record for the day, maybe even a few days, and i may use a player once in a while if it something i want to watch before its on live tv...
    What i have never done and has never even crossed my mind to do, is go back to last weekend in my guide and scroll through it to see what i missed just in case i can watch in on a player.
    Seriously, people do this??
    I do on a regular basis. It's quicker than searching through the iPlayer menu for something, for example, especially if you know when the programme was on and you forgot to set up the recording or get the Recording Failed message.
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    Fewer days on the bar would take less space, space that could be filled with synopsis instead of the new way it is now, done right they could fit the mini tv in too

    You keep saying it won`t free space when quite simply it will, where once there was mon - sun written twice, it would now only be written once, literally cutting the used space in half.
    Yes the horizontal bar would need to be there, but it would stop at the newly placed mini tv or synopsis.
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 508 ✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 3:35PM
    Davey23 said:
    Fewer days on the bar would take less space, space that could be filled with synopsis instead of the new way it is now, done right they could fit the mini tv in too

    You keep saying it won`t free space when quite simply it will, where once there was mon - sun written twice, it would now only be written once, literally cutting the used space in half.
    Yes the horizontal bar would need to be there, but it would stop at the newly placed mini tv or synopsis.

    I’m taking from your comment that you haven’t worked in web / digital or a similar field? I say this because I’ve worked in this field for many years and I’ve studied human computer interaction and the fundamentals of UX design.

    The number of days on the forward / backward epg is immaterial. The bar would still need to extend the full horizontal length of the screen. To do otherwise would be incoherent from an aesthetic and user experience point of view. You can’t just whack stuff on the screen willy nilly!

    What they could do, however, is simply remove the category filter bar which I’m pretty sure is seldom used by most people. Since it requires the blue button to access it in any case, it could quite easily be hidden and exposed via a pop up or overlay. The additional headroom above the forward / backward epg bar at the very top of the screen could then be used to expose the synopsis and the other programme details and fit in a PiP mini TV. The YouView / BT / TalkTalk logo and the time would need to be resized and rearranged, but there would plenty of space to fit everything in. 

  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 3:52PM
    Suggestions of how the EPG could or should be improved date back to the 2012 trials.
    One could argue that despite the (relatively small) changes since then it largely continues to perform its primary function adequately well, i.e. show you what is, will be (or even has been) on, enabling you to set recordings or launch on-demand players.
    Personally I use it once or twice a week to set new recordings. Maybe a handful of times a year I will use the scroll back feature to easily launch something that failed to record or that I could not record due to a triple clash. The time I thus spend using the EPG is small, and its short comings are things I would improve if it were up to me but not something that fundamentally impacts on my use of the box.
    If it were up to me though I would (implement various suggestions from the consolidated list of improvements and feature requests):
    1. remove the new clunky synopsis in guide feature and re-implement it as per earlier requests and feedback using some spare screen real-estate (see consolidated list of improvements and feature requests item 6)
    2. provide a feature to re-order the channels so I can more easily set things from the channels I most use with minimal movement around the grid, whilst still having the channels I use less often visible, and having the channels I never use hidden (see consolidated list of improvements and feature requests item 2)
    3. drop the filters line leaving the blue button option as a way to 'call' this feature up
    4. bring back the ability to loop round from the lowest number channel to the highest number one (see consolidated list of improvements and feature requests item 114)
    5. drop the transparency and bring back an optional mini-TV in the corner (easier for others to follow the current programme while one person is quickly accessing the EPG)
    6. when simultaneous recordings are in progress indicate which channels can be switched to for viewing by greying out inaccessible ones (see consolidated list of improvements and feature requests item 97)
    7. change the view time-window from 90 minutes to 120 minutes (see consolidated list of improvements and feature requests item 5)
    8. consider making the grid more compact such that 8 channels are seen at once rather than 6 (see consolidated list of improvements and feature requests item 5)
    If one typically has a tablet to hand then using the mobile app addresses a few of these matters (5, 7, 8). I don't tend to have a tablet running the app handy when I want to use the EPG, but perhaps if the app evolves into a remote control it might change the way I primarily interact with the box.
    I don't hold much hope of any of the above being implemented any time soon though :(
    Having written the above jogged my memory for this old topic which contains some nice screen shots of other EPG implementations. It seems my list above is not too different to what I said there, so it seems my views on this are largely unchanged :)
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    well we used to have it like i describe, even without reducing the days, i only suggested reducing them to fit both the mini tv and synopsis in this area, i would be happy to have either there.

    see the pic i added of how it used to be.

  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭
    Yep, which went back a week.
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    Yes, as i already stated.
    Again i suggested reducing it to fit the synopsis in there too, instead of this annoying new guide.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,460 ✭✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 10:30PM

    @Davey23

    How would removing the past week create space? The EPG already scrolls left and right for last week and next week.

    And that you have never seen an advert for the backwards EPG is a statement about you and your experiences, not a statement about YouView advertising the backwards EPG. Which is something they did so extensively that it sent Virgin and Sky running to the ASA.

    I have to say, though, that I wonder if you have the knowledge of HTML5, and the familiarity with the inner workings of the YouView source code, than would enable you to pronounce so definitively on the ease of redesigning the guide?  :p

    Edit: Rewrite the last paragraph more in the spirit of enquiry.
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    Not sure there is any need for the sarcasm at all.
    I have added a picture of exactly how it used to be, i would simply like it back that way, why i need knowledge of the inner workings i do not know.
    I have very clearly stated "I" never use the backwards guide and "I" have never seen it advertised, so yes that is a statement about my experience.

    Honestly, the longer i stay on the forum, the worse it gets, so many rude know it alls. 
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭
    I can't see many rude know it alls here, only one or two.  Like others though I am still perplexed as to how removing the backward guide would increase screen space?
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    mon tue wed thu fri sat sun mon tue wed thu fri sat sun 

    mon tue wed thu fri sat sun --------------SPACE--------------



    Do you see how only having one week takes less space now?
    Do you see the space to the right where a mini tv screen could now be placed along with the synopsis of whatever program you have highlighted could be?
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭
    No.
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    Done with this conversation.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 17,460 ✭✭✭
    Davey23 said:

    I have added a picture of exactly how it used to be, i would simply like it back that way, why i need knowledge of the inner workings i do not know.
    Precisely.

    How it used to be was built on an entirely different codebase from the one in use now, and we are told - though we have to take it on trust - that reimplementing the miniTV, for instance, on the new codebase would be preternaturally difficult.

    You are very welcome to say, as many have, that you would like the old UI back.

    But you are not entitled to say, without considerable relevant IT knowledge (and here you and I are in exactly the same boat) whether it would be ‘very easy to redesign the guide’ or not. 
    ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭
    Please, seriously, nobody else seems to be able to see how dropping the backwards EPG would free up more screen space, perhaps you are not able to articulate your point clearly? Or are just wrong? I am definitely willing to reconsider and remove the speck from my eye, if you can remove the mote from yours?
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 508 ✭✭
    @Keith

    Thanks as ever for your common sense approach. I completely agree with your post. It summarises very neatly all the improvements I’d like to see in the YouView EPG.
  • KeithKeith Member, Super User Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 7:24PM
    TomW said:

    The number of days on the forward / backward epg is immaterial. The bar would still need to extend the full horizontal length of the screen. To do otherwise would be incoherent from an aesthetic and user experience point of view. You can’t just whack stuff on the screen willy nilly!

    From my reading of this thread, @TomW has understood what @Davey23 is getting at.
    It is not so much getting rid of the backward part of the EPG grid (which saves no screen space) but getting rid of the corresponding bit of the date ribbon that sits across the top of the grid. If you lose half that list of days then you save half of the space that ribbon takes up. @TomW point though (that I have quoted) then makes the point that although that gains back space, it does so in a way that is not immediately that useful when trying to deliver an overall good layout.
    One could though take @Davey23 point and modify it to say that the date line need not show all 14 days in that ribbon. It could just show a slice of those days and it too could scroll days/dates in and out of the ribbon as one moves along the ribbon. That would in theory saves some screen space but for some would make it less obvious that the EPG can be moved through an entire 15 days period (-7 days, today, + 7 days).
    All-in-all, if one is to try to revise the EPG layout to deliver more useful info then one needs to think of all the aspects together and then come up with an overall layout that works best for the desired spec. One would suppose that is what YouView did when implementing Next Gen. In combination though with what one wants they also needed to feed in what is practical within the framework, and that is where YouView appear to have led us to believe that a mini-TV in HTML5 is difficult (but surely not impossible).
    Looking back at the various examples in the old thread I referenced above I quite like the YouVIX example I included there. Here it is again for direct viewing on this thread :)



    This seems to answer points 1, 3, 5, 7, 8 (and OpenVIX might implement functionality that covers 2, 4 and 6 too). That does not mean though I am likely to switch to OpenVIX, with YouVIX skin, any time soon ;)
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 508 ✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 7:34PM
    Davey23 said:
    mon tue wed thu fri sat sun mon tue wed thu fri sat sun 

    mon tue wed thu fri sat sun --------------SPACE--------------



    Do you see how only having one week takes less space now?
    Do you see the space to the right where a mini tv screen could now be placed along with the synopsis of whatever program you have highlighted could be?

    If my previous post came across as if I was ‘know it all’ then I apologise. That was not my intention. I was just trying to illustrate the point that user experience design isn’t as straightforward as it might appear to the layperson. And by the way I’m not claiming to be any great expert in UX design. I have helped to design websites as part of my job and I studied some basic UX design concepts when I was at university. That’s all.

    Your post above is a case in point. Let’s say for arguments sake, that the backwards EPG is removed as per your suggestion. Can you not see that the ————space————- you’ve highlighted is long and thin whereas as the PiP mini TV would require much more vertical space? In other words, quite simply, they’re not the same shape.

    Can you also not see that the there are certain design conventions used throughout the guide which allow the user to build a mental map of what they’re looking at? So for example, humans read left to right, and as such ‘time’ within the guide is laid out on a horizontal axis left to right using the entire width of the screen. In other words left = the past, and right = the future. This is easy for the user to understand and informs the design of all aspects of the guide. If you we’re to squish the days of the week into half of the width of the screen instead the full width, as per your suggestion, it would not only look weird, and wouldn’t free up much usable space, it would also break a fundamental design convention of the guide. Which is that time is expressed on the horizontal axis using the entire width of the screen.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,282 ✭✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 7:56PM
    Roy>
    "If there is something you never thought to record, but you find there is a buzz about it, perhaps in the papers or round the water cooler at work, then you can go back to where it was shown."

    I found out about 'The Bodyguard' on BBC 1 like this and loved every minute of watching it.
    It wasn't perfect but was gripping.

    A YouView isn't a bad box. In fact its a very good one and is the market leader with potential for further expansion where user numbers are concerned. Backed by a dedicated passionate team that care about it.
    I don't use the backwards EPG that often, but I find criticism of it to be strange, as when I want to use it to find a recommended TV gem I missed its a godsend.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    edited 18 November 2018, 7:57PM
    @TomW, my "rude" comment was not aimed at you.

    Just from the photo keith added and the pic i included, its clear to see you can have long thin text on one side and a mini tv on the other, all along the same horizontal strip and that is the old technology, surely we have advanced to do even more now?
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 508 ✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 8:02PM
    Keith said

    Looking back at the various examples in the old thread I referenced above I quite like the YouVIX example I included there. Here it is again for direct viewing on this thread :)



    This seems to answer points 1, 3, 5, 7, 8 (and OpenVIX might implement functionality that covers 2, 4 and 6 too). That does not mean though I am likely to switch to OpenVIX, with YouVIX skin, any time soon ;)

    That YouVIX skin is really nice. If one of the channel rows were removed to create space for the 14 day forward / backwards bar it’d be pretty much how I’d like the YouView guide to look.

    If I we’re to make a change I’d possibly reduce the size of the font used in the EPG grid cells very slightly and have the programme titles wrapped over two lines within each grid cell (Topfield MyStuff style) to expose more of the programme title. Likewise I’d have the programme title at the top of the screen, above the synopsis, wrapped over two lines for the same reason.

    I looked into OpenVix not so long ago and remember seeing this skin and liking it and thinking “if the open source guys can see what the user requires why can’t YouView?”. In the end I decided not to buy an OpenVix box however as it looked like a lot of work to get one set up correctly. I was a fan of the Toppy but these days I just want something plug-and-play and for all YouView’s faults it is at least very low maintenance.
  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 508 ✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 8:16PM
    Davey23 said:
    @TomW, my "rude" comment was not aimed at you.

    Just from the photo keith added and the pic i included, its clear to see you can have long thin text on one side and a mini tv on the other, all along the same horizontal strip and that is the old technology, surely we have advanced to do even more now?
    Ok let’s just agree to disagree on that point. I’ve explained as clearly as I can the reasons why I don’t think reducing the number of days in the forward / backwards calendar would improve the layout of the guide and why I don’t think it would be a good idea in any case.

    But on the general point that the guide could be much improved and that there is sufficient space for a full synopsis and a PiP mini TV, we are in agreement.
  • redchizredchiz Member, Super User Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭
    TomW said:
    I was a fan of the Toppy but these days I just want something plug-and-play and for all YouView’s faults it is at least very low maintenance.
    And the truth shall set you free!   :smile:
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    I simply came up with the suggestion to remove the backwards guide as to me it is completely useless and would free up space for synopsis to be moved from the new pop up and add a mini tv, i then got a dozen people telling me just how important it was.

    No doubt dozens of people use the blue filter button too, i personally have never used that either.

    As far as i am concerned, the technology clearly exists to have it the way how i would like it, no matter what the "experts" here tell me, as i personally and others have posted photos of it in working order on old youview and other platforms.

  • TomWTomW Member Posts: 508 ✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 8:46PM
    redchiz said:
    TomW said:
    I was a fan of the Toppy but these days I just want something plug-and-play and for all YouView’s faults it is at least very low maintenance.
    And the truth shall set you free!   :smile:
    Haha.  :smile:

    Well to be fair if Topfield had released an updated HD version I’d probably have stuck with it. But the thought of having to configure and maintain an OpenVix box, that just gave me nightmares. Life’s too short for that.  :smile:
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,282 ✭✭✭
    Davey23 said:
    I simply came up with the suggestion to remove the backwards guide as to me it is completely useless and would free up space for synopsis.

    How?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • Davey23Davey23 Member Posts: 57
    Honestly, if i have to explain how removing one feature makes room for another, there is no hope here.
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,282 ✭✭✭
    edited 18 November 2018, 10:08PM
    Ok - How would decreasing the length of a vertical line in the EPG increase screen space horizontally?
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
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