Accessibility issues for blind customers using Youview hardware and Youview software through Sony.

Hello folks,

I hope you don't mind this post, however, I feel this needs to be made publicly aware on this forum, in order to raise the steaks of a matter which I have on-going with Youview through the CEO.

The issue in question concerns the accessibility functionality of Youview software and hardware where blind customers who wish to listen to TV (and yes, we do), who purchase new hardware, are pushed in to using YouView by default, which, with the android OS based built in Screen reader from Version 8 to current, the screen reader cannot function at all with the software or firmware. 

I have such accessibility in Technology background and have spent some time communicating with YouView over this matter, but I feel that a cloud of silence has formed, which does indeed concern me.

So that anyone reading this understands the issue in it's basic level, here's the situation...

Current products which feature YouView, whether embedded in to firmware or as an app through the Google Android TV OS system, are unable to be accessed by blind and severely sight impaired customers.

Products affected including Youview's own hardware systems (received an older sample unit to demonstrate and assess issues), as well as current Sony TV's, DVD / Blu-Ray player / recorders, and other devices where the YouView software is installed per manufacturer's contract with YouView Ltd.

The issue concerns the fact that where an accessibility interface is bolted on to the operating system, mainly referring to Google Android TV OS 8, 9 and to current, the screen reader speaks out all text of the OS and associated apps and allows a sight impaired or blind user to navigate easily, providing equal accessibility and empowering blind people to live as near to normal lives as possible.

My own situation, I am fully blind and have been for 21 years, born visually impaired. what is around me is how I describe to the sighted world as "black" otherwise describing "Nothing" would be like listening to someone's thoughts go in to panic, like the "bomb" error in classic mac operating systems, etc. or the sad mac chime... For me, I'm a mac user, so VoiceOver on the mac is a vital lifeline, iOs using the same screen reader means that an iphone can turn in to a life saving device in a situation like mine, where the camera can scan text, translate colours, etc, these tools are life changing and essential. I am a white cane user, so mobility is important to me.

I started with accessible TV's back in 2014 when the Panasonic Vierra series came out with a screen reader system, which, at the time was ground breaking, though it had limitations, it was better than nothing, having a TV channel details spoken, volume, control functions, EPG, etc spoken, it was a huge help. At the time, I never knew about YouView because it wasn't part of that TV set at the time. So, A new firmware update to that TV, then "YouView". couldn't use it, screen reader didn't even understand it, no supported code to handle it. So, 5 years loyal usage with this TV, then in August 2019 it died, wouldn't switch on, when it did, it just started then crashed, noise then smoke. oh dear. So, a desperate search for a TV to give me some of the support I needed. I was completely new to Android OS, never used it before in my life. So, I got a tip off about Sony TV's using Android OS and tha tthere was a screen reader built in. So, off to currys to find the model to replace, tried it out, I was blown away, ok it had some issues, but I was willing to put up with them. It fitted like a glove for the most part, but YouView was installed by default in firmware, not as an addition or separate service, obviously by the way Sony compiled the Firmware package. so I needed help getting the TV in to a normal DTV EPG mode, which it did, phew.

Now then, Youview, couldn't even interact with a screen reader, yet again. I felt like I couldn't achieve what I wanted to achieve, I couldn't use a particular piece of software which would give me equal accessibility to digital content. It took some time to find details of directors for YouVuew, then I made the decision to approach YouView and raise the case. After some time, and a 2nd chase email, a response from the CEO. After that response, we had a basic dialogue, but from that point onwards, nothing.

End of Jan this year, my trusty Sony KD43XG8096 (now discontinued) failed. Having raised the case initially with Currys, they didn't want to know, Contacted Sony, a support agent treated my sight loss like a joke and caused such distress. after issuing a legal email of intention to raise a case against a support agent for a disability related offence, I received an urgent call from a customer experience director, an amazing guy who for a number of days, stuck with me and fixed the crisis with a solution, a replacement updated unit, what arrived through Currys, an XH9196, the most amazing, accessible TV now on the market, why? with the screen reader running, all channel information is spoken, unlike the previous where you knew nothing, not even if a drive was connected, time, nothing, it would speak the EPG, menus, etc but not give basic firmware based TV details. this new TV is a huge game changer. Starting up though and setting up, easy, until it started up YouView by default, luckily this TV gives the ability of moving between YouView and the standard EPG which is fully accessible with the Android Screen Reader. 

So, I'm posting this article here to share the issue of non-existent accessibility for blind users who are either forced to use this service on new hardware or need to find work arounds.

If anyone can be of assistance in supporting this matter with communications with further powers that be, or supporting my communications with YouView, I'd much appreciate it.

Lew.

I'll share with you an "edited" version (removing personal data, etc) which was originally sent in 2020 and an updated email today...

----

Dear Susie and all at YouView,

I thought I’d get back in touch with you since our last point of contact. which was some time ago. Since our last contact, my Sony Bravia sadly departed due to a board fault, as Currys refused to assist even though they were the supplier, Sony initially caused huge issues where my disability meant I couldn’t provide them with their demands, having issued them a legal document of Disability Law and the fact that I gave them one further final chance to resolve or this goes to the courts, I had a phone call from one of the Customer Experience directors who was more than concerned and wanted to help. 1 week later, brand new sony bravia XH9196 tv, which is the ULTIMATE in blind friendly TV. It has the ability to move between Youvuew and the traditional DVB-T2 EPG methods, all channel information via the DVB system is spoken, it’s as blind friendly as you could ever get, and pure heaven too. I feel so much more able to achieve what I want to achieve.

I had a very interesting conversation with a few people at Sony about the YouView experience and I am informed that as of Android 9 x onwards and the model I now have, the YouView system is now an app and not embedded firmware structure and as such can be tapped in to with the Android Accessibility SDK and Android Accessibility Suite, in particular the Text To Speech Services (TTS) and Screen Reader which runs within the Android OS system and subsystem. I tested to see if the current youview app works with the Android screen reader, sadly it fails yet again and I am saddened by this and by the efforts I have taken to open dialogue with you and your developers, which, other than sending me an android box which demonstrated even worse concerns over accessibility being based on a custom OS and Firmware, there was no viable option to compile a screen reader resource to the hardware. That said, The YouView app for Android OS can indeed be updated and enhanced in order that a screen reader within Android can indeed navigate and speak content.

I would love for the day when I can do this, use your software and for once, have equal access to services I want to use, such as Channel 4 OD, ITV Hub, be able to go back through 7 days to catch up on missed media, etc. If this can be achieved, then there are huge advantages ahead for YouView. I don’t know if you produce new boxes / new PVR’s, but if you can use Android TV9 or Android TV10 with a quad tuner module which would allow you to record several programmes at a time, supporting YouView software, etc with the screen reader compatibility, you can compete against and beat a competitor who is a disgrace to the disabled commmunity, Humax, who takes delight in swearing at a disabled customer over the phone when requesting some assistance regarding accessibility when it comes to a new Aura system released last year. As the company failed to market accessibility support based on running Android 9, etc as a recorder system, I made basic enquiries and was told to F&&& OFF!. trying to raise the matter lead to nothing, other than losing a customer.

If YouView can be made fully supported to the Android Screen reader, I can tell you one thing for certain and I can guarantee it, the lives you will change for the better. You’d feature in RNIB’s website and any media to promote support for blind customers. I’m in the process of doing this with Sony for their new products.

So, the challenge is on, question is, are you willing to accept? are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? are you willing to openly encourage your service developers and programmers to make your YouView software service blind friendly over the Google Android Platform, which is the best and most viable option today? If so, let’s do it! Come on :) I dare you ;)… So, what do you say? It’s 2021, time we started challenging boundaries, making a huge difference, a positive difference, time to shake the world by the doodahs and mean business!

You want help, I’m here, have me involved, use me how ever you can, I’m there as a weapon for your company.

What do you say?

what do I need to do to encourage you? (Scene from the first series of Cold Feet springs to mind…. nooooo)

All the best,

Lewis

Mr. Lewis Alexander
------------

To: Ms. Susie Buckridge.
C/O: YouView TV Ltd
3rd Floor
10 Lower Thames Street
London
EC3R 6YT.

Copy forwarded to: Representatives of Sony EU, Mr. Sundar Pichai (CEO of Google),

Wednesday 5th August 2020.

Dear Miss. Buckridge,

I hope you don’t mind me sending you this email, however, I am reaching out to you, not just for myself, but I represent many thousands of blind and visually impaired people throughout the UK. We are in need of your help. Your email address was listed  on CEO Email website. I had also called your office on your 020 number and spoke with a most charming young lady, who’s voice I could listen to all day. She had  passed a message for someone on support to try and reach me. I thought though I would follow this up by reaching out to you. I hope you don’t mind.

I am fully blind and have been for 20 years, 5 months and 3 weeks 5 days (yes I still count the days at times). My loss of sight was not genetic, though born visually impaired, I was assaulted, to the degree where I needed various forms of life saving and reconstructive surgeries at the age of 15. I have gone through a number of battles, both major and minor since losing sight, including the equal right to education and support, adaptive technologies, equality in various sectors, etc. I am a fully qualified and time served professional musician with a Royal Masters in Music Degree and qualified as a teacher (though I don’t teach). Besides this, due to the nature of my sight loss, I took on two rather necessary parts in life I rely on, my background and professional qualifications in Accessibility in Technology as a developer, trainer and consultant, also in disability law, where I am called upon at times as an expert witness in the High Courts  in certain matters involving  Disability and accessibility matters to manufacturers and institutions alike.

My reason for reaching out to you is  due to your YouView software which is installed as a service on most, if not all “Smart TV’s” especially those using the android OS platform. 

The issue in question concerns accessibility of your software - directly pertaining to the use of the screen reader service and text to speech services within operating systems such as Android OS where I will be focusing my concerns directly.

In order to demonstrate the issue directly, please allow me to illustrate descriptively the situation faced by blind and visually impaired users. To clarify, this does not pertain to “Audio Description” as discussed on your website’s support articles.

<Accessibility Features - YouView Support.pdf> 

Place yourself in the situation where you are newly (recently) blind, or have been blind since birth or a period of years, as such, in this example, you are classed “NLD” (Non light dependent) which means fully blind, all around you is pure black or as we describe it to ourselves “Nothing”. You are adapting to a completely new life where you cannot drive a car, read a newspaper, see the sky, anything in which the sighted community takes for granted every second of every day. You are then trained in blind rehabilitation through services such as RNIB or Vision Support through County based social services initiatives. regardless of whether you’re an adult of any age. You find yourself needing help from others or relying on technology to support you. these technologies take the shape of computers using screen readers, such as the mac with VoiceOver built in, Windows computers using one of a few different screen readers, etc, a speaking phone, which could be a Windows Mobile based device, Android OS based device or an Apple iPhone, etc, these tools become your eyes with the right training and software support / tools.

Until several years ago, TV wasn’t made accessible to the blind, so you had to rely on either just flicking through channels and that was it, or sighted help, or just listening to the radio (yawn). It started off with Panasonic  back in 2014 with the launch of their speaking TV’s. They were relying on their own OS, though classed as “Smart TV’s. back then, accessibility in terms of spoken content and accessible menus, etc was limited, but you were grateful of some spoken feedback.

Today, Manufacturers like LG, Sony, etc who use the Android OS, automatically have the ability of spoken menus, program guides, etc, allowing a blind person to navigate a TV, even using Youtube is just heaven on a spoken TV.

Say you’ve just purchased one of these new TV’s, it arrives on your door step, you either learn to install a TV yourself or have sighted help, in most cases, sighted help would be needed to initially install. Once you start learning how to use your speaking TV, you then go to your “program Guide” to find it is completely unusable, cannot speak out information, etc. That is due to the fact that it isn’t the program guide at all, it is “YOUVIEW” which has absolutely no support for a screen reader or Text to speech engine on any spoken supported TV. How would that make you feel as a user? Most likely dejected because you’ve spent money on a product to improve the quality of your life, to find that a service you need access to does not work for you, so you have to go back to the old style TV guide system which does speak, but has no support for  going backward or forward, etc or interacting with features that sighted people have an advantage over (rather unfair wouldn’t you think?)

With this, how would you feel? what would you do? take it back for a refund and find another hoping it will do better? Sorry, you’re in for a huge dose of disappointment. It doesn’t matter what new “Smart TV you go for, it would do exactly the same.

You could just use certain online streaming TV channels, but then that’s paid services and likely poor if no accessibility support for a screen reader what so ever. Even BBC iPlayer has issues.

This is the situation faced by many thousands of blind and visually impaired people of all ages throughout the UK, millions throughout the world.

Accessibility and disability adaptations are no longer an “afterthought option”, they are written in law, from the Equalities Acts (UK / EU), to the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA), to the involvements of charities / organisations including RNIB and SENSE. These are now legal requirements and each day, challenges are faced where interventions are needed. Sadly, disability is looked upon by businesses (mainly manufacturers / service providers) as an “oh no, another drain on resources” or “Why should we bother doing this for a bunch of cripples” based attitudes. I hate to shock you, but you’d be surprised at the attitudes  we face and I in my profession have experienced and listened to, and of course, acted upon legally. The problem we face is to do with manufacturer and supplier attitudes to do with disability. Have you noticed how businesses post on their websites, twitter and facebook accounts, posts such as “LGBTQ / Gay Pride” then go on about being “inclusive” companies? The problem is, Company management, boards of directors, share holders, etc, they don’t realise that “inclusion / inclusivity” has to cover more than just that, it has to cover disability support under current and new laws. Yet it’s ignored with excuses like “We’ll look in to this next meeting” which then doesn’t get looked in to and I know this as fact, as a witness. 

I can give you a prime example, not TV related, but Music related. As I’ve said in my introduction, I’m a professional musician, that being not just a performer, i am a recording artist and producer, also with this, I work with manufacturers in the Audio industry in advising adaptations to software, etc. At present, I have a major legal fight representing a huge community of blind and sight impaired musicians, students, producers, sound engineers, etc worldwide, This manufacturer’s attitude to disability is to the point of ignoring the matter and burying their heads in the sand. I will NOT stand for it. They have a legal obligation to ensure that they work with the worldwide guidelines and applicable laws of “Inclusion” and as such, accessibility adaptations which can be easily undertaken with the right knowledge, training and people to support them. The company produces both hardware and software based systems and as such, when products are designed, they are choosing a particular cross-section of the market and not consulting with people like myself, coming out with products using touch screens, etc without any form of assistive support, external software, etc. it’s just wrong, they even produce softwar for music production which they claim “anyone can use” which is a false statement, because blind and visually impaired users relying on assistive technologies can’t use them. meaning this is an act of disability discrimination. Many businesses, whether manufacturers, service providers, developers, etc, are guilty of this, some unknowing, some openly defiant.

So, getting back to the key focus here, phew… YouView as an application or even as an operating system depending on how it’ is designed, is unusable by blind and visually impaired users, regardless of the interface / product used. this means  that as demonstrated earlier in this letter, that features you’re promoting, marketing or selling to the community as a whole, are not usable by blind users, as such, the design of the system prevents and “discriminates against” blind people from using services and functions you provide. It’s deeply upsetting that a product like this doesn’t cater to blind and visually impaired users in the way it should do.

It would be worth consulting with Google’s Android team on accessibility code resources as I am not an Android developer, strictly apple. But this matter does need to be addressed and I feel that who better, than the CEO, who I hope is kind, charming, nice voice and a deadly laugh. who can engage with me, manufacturers and others to make a positive and exciting change.

My question is… Are you up for this challenge? £10 says yes lol

I just want to convey this case to you in the best way possible, hoping I can find a solution for my own needs as well as the needs of a growing nation of blind and visually impaired people, UK wide, Europe Wide and WorldWide. So, What do you say? Do you fancy this challenge? do you have what it takes to make a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE? Are you the type who can pull off anything with a smile and say “[email protected]! I did that…” I think you are. I encourage you to share this with your shareholders, representatives, partners, etc, I grant my permission for anyone within your connections to communicate with me should they like to discuss this further. All I ask, (on my knees) is please don’t ignore this and chuck in the trash. Think of how this would affect you if this was you or if you had a child with sight impairment or sight loss. There’s your true answer.

Anyway, I hope that if or where you have the time to get in touch, I look forward to hearing from you, either by email or by phone.

Go on… you know you can make a positive and exciting change for the better…


Yours Sincerely.

Lewis Alexander

Copy to: Directors of Sony EU.
Sony Europe B.V.
The Heights,  
Brooklands, 
Weybridge, 
Surrey, 
KT13 0XW

Comments

  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • SarahSarah Administrator Posts: 1,705 admin
    Hi @LewisAlexander
    Sion and Sunit would like to thank you for your time on the phone today. They found it was a very engaging conversation, and as discussed, have some plans to involve you as an official Beta triallist for forward facing products and accessibility features.
    Thanks again for raising this with us :) 
    Sarah
  • Visionman said:
    I think you need to take your complaint to the blind association.

    https://www.rnib.org.uk/information-everyday-living-home-and-leisure-television-radio-and-film/television

    Thank you kindly for your response. It is nnot the duty of RNIB to undertake such matters and as such, they cannot help. There have been a few campaigns and involvements such as RNIB in partnership with Panasonic, however, that fell through when Panasonic started changing parameters. So, I do as I would in a professional context and draw the matter to the developer's attention. As such, Today has seen such positive interaction. I am not able to discuss the content of the matter, but my words are, wait and see.

  • kodikidkodikid Member Posts: 549 ✭✭
    Did you know in my workplace we cannot refer to people as being blind?
    Visually impaired is the most commonly used term.
    Ignore this if you disagree. 
  • DarrenDarren Member, Super User Posts: 466 ✭✭
    edited 12 February 2021, 11:15PM
    I know more needs to be done to help the bind.
    My dad in the last few months has now been registered as partly blind and has been using reading glasses for well over 10 years now but in the last few months now has to also wear glasses for watching TV but he occasionally forgets to wear his glasses due to him now sadly having the early stages of dementia.
    Hes also partly deaf and has to wear a hearing aid in one of his ears.
    Dont know if it's an old peoples thing but in the last few months he's
    now never up later then 8.30-9pm.
    He now gets cares in at last 2 or 3 times a day,
    Dads 87 and I have to now record the likes of Question Time for him as he's now mostly in bed when it's on. As once in a while he's now slowly starting to forget how to use on demand services and catch up like iPlayer or how to set a programme to record on the Youview box.

  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭
    Visionman said:
    I think you need to take your complaint to the blind association.

    https://www.rnib.org.uk/information-everyday-living-home-and-leisure-television-radio-and-film/television

    Thank you kindly for your response. It is nnot the duty of RNIB to undertake such matters and as such, they cannot help. There have been a few campaigns and involvements such as RNIB in partnership with Panasonic, however, that fell through when Panasonic started changing parameters. So, I do as I would in a professional context and draw the matter to the developer's attention. As such, Today has seen such positive interaction. I am not able to discuss the content of the matter, but my words are, wait and see.


    Beta trialist eh? Nice one. See you on the edge of the world, brother. 
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
  • robotmanrobotman Member Posts: 177
    kodikid said:
    Did you know in my workplace we cannot refer to people as being blind?
    Visually impaired is the most commonly used term.
    My daughter refers to herself as 'blind' as do her blind friends. To them the term 'visually impaired' belittles their sight loss, as a visually impaired person can refer to anyone who needs glasses right up to someone with 3/60 sight, whereas 'blind' people are blind (or have such a severe degree of sight loss they are clinically 'registered blind'). Whoever makes these decisions in this particular workplace would be better off engaging with blind people to get their views on the terminology and what it means to the individuals concerned. 
    "Flash, Flash, I love you, but we only have 14 hours to save the Earth"
  • kodikidkodikid Member Posts: 549 ✭✭
    robotman said:
    kodikid said:
    Did you know in my workplace we cannot refer to people as being blind?
    Visually impaired is the most commonly used term.
    My daughter refers to herself as 'blind' as do her blind friends. To them the term 'visually impaired' belittles their sight loss, as a visually impaired person can refer to anyone who needs glasses right up to someone with 3/60 sight, whereas 'blind' people are blind (or have such a severe degree of sight loss they are clinically 'registered blind'). Whoever makes these decisions in this particular workplace would be better off engaging with blind people to get their views on the terminology and what it means to the individuals concerned. 
    The main reason it can be insulting is when you apply it to someone who can see just not very well.
    A lot of people who are classified legally blind by social services aren't totally sightless therefore using sight impaired means you don't get it wrong.
    We avoid labeling people because of their disabilities. 
    Also Blind in the English language is often used to highlight a person's unwilling to understand, ie robotman was blind to the fact kodikid meant no offence. 
    Ignore this if you disagree. 
  • John LJohn L Member, Super User Posts: 766 ✭✭
    edited 13 February 2021, 10:07AM
    @Darren,
    My late father gradually developed dementia. He used to love using his Humax Freeview pvr, that I set up, taught him how to use. Back in 2016, the year he passed away, he got into a complete muddle and only kept watching the same recordings over and over again. It's very sad. I had also repaired an old Youview box for him to use, but never got round to setting it up for him. He would have been completely confused with streaming etc! You are doing your best  Darren with your father. Keep on helping him, even if you have to programme the schedules for him. One day we all might be like it, I'm sure he appreciates your help. John L
    Can't wait for the day when Youview get rid of the dreaded darkened banner when using fast forward/rewind recordings. 
  • DarrenDarren Member, Super User Posts: 466 ✭✭
    edited 13 February 2021, 12:07PM
    @John L thanks and sorry your father died a few years ago.
    yes I’m doing my best for my father and it’s not easy. I just glad I also have my sister for help at times even if she stays 5 miles down the road from me.
    Dad dose love watch TV mostly the news, old comedy shows and as I said question time that I now record for him as he’s now in bed when it’s on but since just before Christmas just passed,We had have notice he’s slowly staring to go downhill and that he’s also starting to watch the TV a little less then he used to.
    Don’t know if it’s cause of him in early stages of dementia or if it’s as he’s now partly blind. As well as having to wear an hearing aid.
    Just yesterday I told him Sky News is now also on channel 385 for HD on BT but after a short while he still went to channel 233 then after 20mins turned TV off.
    We been finding that although he can 75%/80% remember what’s been happening that day if you now had to ask him a day or two later about what happen a few days ago he now dont remember all that happened.
    A little more needs to be done for the likes of my father so he can still be able to enjoy watching the TV.
    My sister said give it a year or two and he may stop watching the TV altogether and also be a little more forgetful and his eyes will slowly get worse.
  • John LJohn L Member, Super User Posts: 766 ✭✭
    edited 13 February 2021, 12:22PM
    Hi @Darren,
    This is one of my views that comes up from time to time regarding Youview "revamps". The end user, whatever their age, has to quickly adapt to a new interface, or small/ large tweek in menu settings etc. The Design team at Youview are all young and maybe don't always appreciate this. I love technology, love trying out new devices, features, but like to have some user control within settings, so that I can decide what works for me. At the end of the day, the user has to live with the technology in their home. With regards your Dad, it must be bewildering for him. He wants to be independent, but needs family support. I think Covid19 has maybe made people think a lot more about things with family and those on their own. Let's hope Youview can solve the Sony TV problem! John L
    Can't wait for the day when Youview get rid of the dreaded darkened banner when using fast forward/rewind recordings. 
  • DarrenDarren Member, Super User Posts: 466 ✭✭
    edited 13 February 2021, 1:01PM
    Hi @John L
    I myself love tech and all things new but I agree some old people like my dad sometimes find it hard when there is change. Even if there is a minor change to the Youview layout it can take him a good few days to now get used to it and even then he still has to ask how to use it at times.
    I have Amazon Echos in the house and have not even tried to show him how to use them as there is no point. 
    Even the other day when I was using my Amazon Fire Stick. He was amazed that how I could be talking to it and it was bring up and playing what I asked it and trying to explain to him how it worked he just could not really fully understand.
    Yes dad wants to be independent but he now needs support at times.
    You are right about Covid-19 that it may have made people think a lot more about things with family and those on their own.
    Dad used to also love gardening but in the last year or two hes not been able do much gardening anymore and seemed to have slowly lost interest in gardening.
    Yes lets hope Youview can solve this Sony problem and make Youview  a little more user friendly for older people.
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭
    The trouble with PC is that it has an absolute tin ear for the nuances of language.

    While the replacement of pejorative or insulting terms with neutral or nicer terms is praiseworthy, it’s sadly rare that these are entirely successful - ‘Down’s syndrome’ is one of the few exceptions.

    But I’ve never felt that ‘blind’ was either pejorative or insulting. And to lump blind people in with all the other degrees of visual impairment, a spectrum that ranges from just needing glasses, through macular degeneration, to 100% sight loss at best loses a useful distinction, and at worst sweeps them under the carpet.

    How, AAMOI, @kodikid, does your management expect you to describe, or address, those people who cannot tell red from green? ‘Colour-visually-impaired’?

    To continue the PC theme, perhaps there are some in your personnel department who are, er, ‘intellectually challenged’?
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • robotmanrobotman Member Posts: 177
    Roy said:
    The trouble with PC is that it has an absolute tin ear for the nuances of language.

    While the replacement of pejorative or insulting terms with neutral or nicer terms is praiseworthy, it’s sadly rare that these are entirely successful - ‘Down’s syndrome’ is one of the few exceptions.

    But I’ve never felt that ‘blind’ was either pejorative or insulting. And to lump blind people in with all the other degrees of visual impairment, a spectrum that ranges from just needing glasses, through macular degeneration, to 100% sight loss at best loses a useful distinction, and at worst sweeps them under the carpet.

    How, AAMOI, @kodikid, does your management expect you to describe, or address, those people who cannot tell red from green? ‘Colour-visually-impaired’?

    To continue the PC theme, perhaps there are some in your personnel department who are, er, ‘intellectually challenged’?
    I've just read your post to my daughter who has asked me to send you a massive "THANK YOU" for your understanding and support. She's rather scathing of kodikid's response though. Our local RNIB representative says kodikid's work management could benefit from a consult with RNIB Services, especially as he claims "We avoid labeling people because of their disabilities", yet is prepared to use the term "visually impaired" when referring to 'legally blind' people. The mind boggles sometimes.
    "Flash, Flash, I love you, but we only have 14 hours to save the Earth"
  • kodikidkodikid Member Posts: 549 ✭✭
    edited 15 February 2021, 2:38PM
    Have to laugh at the audacity of the RNIB rep lecturing anyone given  that the charity received an official warning last year over the worst example of charity failure  the charity commission had ever seen  and given a official legal order to change its management and culture. 
    You really couldn't make it up.. really does take hypocrisy to the next level. 


    Ignore this if you disagree. 
  • RoyRoy Member, Super User Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭
    kodikid said:
    Have to laugh at the audacity of the RNIB rep lecturing anyone given  that the charity received an official warning last year over the worst example of charity failure  the charity commission had ever seen  and given a official legal order to change its management and culture. 
    You really couldn't make it up.. really does take hypocrisy to the next level. 


    @kodikid

    Playing the man and not the ball, eh?
    Supporting YouView on Sony TVs is like nailing jelly to a herd of cats
  • robotmanrobotman Member Posts: 177
    kodikid said:
    Have to laugh at the audacity of the RNIB rep lecturing anyone given  that the charity received an official warning last year over the worst example of charity failure  the charity commission had ever seen  and given a official legal order to change its management and culture. 
    You really couldn't make it up.. really does take hypocrisy to the next level. 


    I take it from your post you also disagree with my daughter, or that you know better than her on how her disability should best be described?
    BTW I wouldn't call it a lecture. More reaching out to educate those bosses, wherever they may be, showing prejudice towards, and ignorance of, disabled people and how THEY see THEMSELVES and the 'labels' they themselves use to describe themselves. Only trying to help  :)
    "Flash, Flash, I love you, but we only have 14 hours to save the Earth"
  • VisionmanVisionman Member, Super User Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭
    edited 16 February 2021, 2:53AM
    kodikid said:
    Have to laugh at the audacity of the RNIB rep lecturing anyone given  that the charity received an official warning last year over the worst example of charity failure  the charity commission had ever seen  and given a official legal order to change its management and culture. 
    You really couldn't make it up.. really does take hypocrisy to the next level. 

    That comment is really awful.
    I'm now happy with the disagree icon, because its gone.
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