If you keep a subscription for which we supplied a set top box for 12
months or more, you will not have to pay anything for that set top box
if you later end the subscription for which the set top box was
supplied.
It doesn't say that after the twelve month period the box becomes yours, or that they won't ask you to send it back.
This is all very confusing. I got the box from BT in 2018. The new BT T&C are not very clear and have had 3 different replies for what I should do on here regarding sending or not sending the BT box back.
It's certainly implied that it's yours and certainly doesn't state that you must return it if you end the subscription and that's the way it's applied to me over the years.
This is all very confusing. I got the box from BT in 2018. The new BT T&C are not very clear and have had 3 different replies for what I should do on here regarding sending or not sending the BT box back.
Darren that box is yours to do as you wish with. So as you have a use for it just keep using it. In 2018 BT supplied boxes for an initial upfront charge (I think typically between £0 and £49) and the residual amount ( Ie RRP minus initial payment) was a deferred payment which would be written off when the TV subscription was held for 12 months. In December 2019 that changed so TV boxes supplied with TV subscriptions thereafter were on a loan basis so are contractually returnable. So a box supplied in 2018 is not affected as Darren would have been the box owner back then and would have had the deferred payment written off 12 months thereafter .
If you believe Zulu then it's true that ignorance truly is bliss. If you contracted or RENEWED after 13/12/19 you have to return or pay...it really is that black and white.
Obviously ultimately no one really knows the answer.....so hold your nerve (best poker face) and just ignore the BT onslaught to hand it back. Obviously BT are doing this to save the planet and not to spite those that dare to leave. Fingers crossed they don't pursue it.
My intention was to reassure you that you do not have to send your boxes back to BT.
I used the 2015 T&Cs as an example of the wording prior to December 2019. It makes it clear that after the contract has ended, you will not have to pay anything for the set top box
if you later end the subscription for which the set top box was supplied.
Renewing your subscription ends the one for which the box was supplied, but the legally binding contract of the previous one can't be changed retrospectively.
I did renew contract for BT TV in March 2020 when I moved from the old BT TV Entertainment Max HD package to the Now Big Entertainment package with HD add on but as I said I got BT Youview box in 2018. It was a replacement for the Youview T1000 that had packed in. BT TV contract with Now ended nearly 4 days ago and yesterday afternoon I went with Now TV direct for same package with the discounts that I said above and canceled BT TV with Now.
BT TV service with Now due to end in just over 2 weeks time. My next BT bill is on 16th April.
It's certainly implied that it's yours and certainly doesn't state that you must return it if you end the subscription and that's the way it's applied to me over the years.
BT clearly and unequivocally stated in its T&Cs back then that ownership of the box transferred to the customer on receipt, unless they sent it back within the cooling off period.
On Day 1 note, not on completion of the minimum term or anything like that.
I don’t know if BT changed their T&Cs between then and 13/12/2019 to alter this rule at all; nor do I know if there is an archive of past T&Cs that can be consulted, though I do know that following links that once led to earlier T&Cs when they were current all lead to the current T&Cs.
@Darren, I would suggest that you decline to return the box to BT.
The worst that can happen is that BT will make a non-return charge; if they do, then you have the option to return the box tout suite, whereupon they will refund the charge to you. Or to query the charge rather forcefully, to see if they will return it and let you keep the box anyway.
But most likely, they won’t even attempt to make the non-return charge, given that you had it under the old rules before they changed the T&Cs.
NB: this thread has the worst thread drift I have ever seen in all my years on the Community 😛
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
@Roy will decline sending the Youview box back and see what happens as I still use the box for Freeview channels and now and again to record Freeview channels. Thanks for your reply.
Have payed £5 for boost as the 7 day free trial ended yesterday. Have manged to get it down to £2 a month for 3 months from 26th April. Still no offers on Entertainment or Sky Cinema. So will try again start of June when my 3 months at £5.99 a month for Entertainment and £5.99 a month for Sky Cinema is near the end.
The discounts don't usually appear until you start the cancellation process. June is probably the best month to get a mega deal as nearly all the Sky sports customers have gone (waiting for the new season) and not many movie or entertainment suber's bother watching in the summer months.
Have payed £5 for boost as the 7 day free trial ended yesterday. Have manged to get it down to £2 a month for 3 months from 26th April. Still no offers on Entertainment or Sky Cinema. So will try again start of June when my 3 months at £5.99 a month for Entertainment and £5.99 a month for Sky Cinema is near the end.
The strategy with Now is to wait until you are in the last month of a current offer, and then start the cancellation process, at which point you are very likely to be offered a retention discount as part of the automated dialogue. Then you simply accept the offer instead of proceeding any further with the cancellation.
This is a course of action not open to those who take Now as part of BT TV, though paying the sticker prices does get them the ability to record the Now channels, albeit without the subtitles we would find essential.
@Roy the linear BT multicast delivered Now channels on The EPG have subtitles and thus recordings will. It is the Now app on Youview where subtitles are still lacking.
@Roy the linear BT multicast delivered Now channels on The EPG have subtitles and thus recordings will. It is the Now app on Youview where subtitles are still lacking.
@Roy thanks for your info. Going direct with Now does seem to give better offers then with BT. Plus I no longer tied in to another 2 year contract for TV. @zulu17 never knew the Now channels via the Youview EPG had subtitles.
That would have been handy for dad. As he is partly deaf but in the last few years now also has to wear reading glasses and glasses for watching the TV. I take it the Now app via the Amazon Firesticks can have subtitles. Just not the Now app on the Youview box.
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
@Jeffuk1 thanks for your reply I dont think I will be sending the Youview box back as it seem I now own the Youview box, Going by some of the posts on here and a few posts on the BT Community and one one or two thinking I sould return the box when asked. @kodiplod BT have not sent me out a returns bag as yet to return the Youview box. Its now been about 10 days since I cancelled The Now service with BT TV. My BT TV service with Now is due to end in the next 12 days and lest I will be saving some money now being with Now direct for the same packages I was on with BT for BT TV. My next BT bill in in 2 weeks time for my other BT services so will see what it says on the BT bill then.
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
Not about the irrevocable transfer of ownership, but about the timing of it.
The transfer will have taken place at the start of the first contract, not at the end of it.
Thanks Roy,
Can you post the wording as I'd be interested to see it please.
Without reading it I presumed that the ownership was contingent on the contract being completed as this would seem the most logical approach of the agreement and that if for any reason it wasn't then the ownership remained with the service provider and had to be returned. It would be an extremely odd and badly written contract which said that if the subscriber made just one payment he could retain the box wouldn't it.
But the splitting of hairs amounts to the same doesn't it. The ownership at some point passed to the subscriber and cannot be subsequently nulled in a future new agreement and can now be retained by him/her without fear of any enforceable future charge.
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
Here’s me in 2015 referring to paragraph 12 in BT’s T&Cs as they were then. With that wonderful thing, hindsight, I wish I had copied them in, as BT have a habit of changing where their URLs point to 😢
Your correction of my post seems to be a presumption rather than on your reading of the actual contract but ironically you seem to have even contradicted your own earlier correction of my post!
You said in your linked post that ownership passed after 14 days of commencement of the contract rather than the start as long as it hadn't thus far been cancelled. Without reading I remain doubtful that after a second and final payment the box can be retained. A customer would be entitled to break the contract at any time if they felt that the level of service hadn't been provided in the way that was reasonably expected. Being entitled to keep the box in such circumstances would indicate an unusually badly written agreement.
Your correction of my post seems to be a presumption rather than on your reading of the actual contract but ironically you seem to have even contradicted your own earlier correction of my post!
You said in your linked post that ownership passed after 14 days of commencement of the contract rather than the start as long as it hadn't thus far been cancelled. Without reading I remain doubtful that after a second and final payment the box can be retained. A customer would be entitled to break the contract at any time if they felt that the level of service hadn't been provided in the way that was reasonably expected. Being entitled to keep the box in such circumstances would indicate an unusually badly written agreement.
No, ownership transferred on receipt. If the customer sent the box back under the cooling off arrangement, then BT would accept ownership back.
But either way, ownership transferred on receipt.
After 14 days, BT would no longer accept the box back and forgive the debt; the customer remained liable for the contractual sum, and if BT had to pursue matters, they would be looking for the monetary settlement, and not chasing the customer for the box at all.
I can’t answer for set-asides on the contracts, and other disputes 😢
But I kind I’d got the impression that BT didn’t want the boxes back if things went south, just the money they were owed.
It’s quite possible that somebody in BT later agreed with you about the terms of the agreement though, given the highly misleading emails they were sending out about wanting their boxes back at the end of the contract. But legally, they didn’t have a leg to stand on, and if challenged would mumble about ‘just giving their customers the opportunity to recycle’ the boxes.
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
I looked after my parents' BT account and I do recall that there was a change in T&Cs some couple of years or so back, I can't be bothered to look it up now, that would be for those to whom it directly matters. Essentially they changed from the box is yours - which btw never seemed to stop them for asking for a return as is well documented on these forums and doubtless BT's own - to the box is on loan. If you signed up subsequent to those changes they will apply to you. Likewise, if you have ever had a replacement box since then it will also apply.
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
Not about the irrevocable transfer of ownership, but about the timing of it.
The transfer will have taken place at the start of the first contract, not at the end of it.
Thanks Roy,
Can you post the wording as I'd be interested to see it please.
Without reading it I presumed that the ownership was contingent on the contract being completed as this would seem the most logical approach of the agreement and that if for any reason it wasn't then the ownership remained with the service provider and had to be returned. It would be an extremely odd and badly written contract which said that if the subscriber made just one payment he could retain the box wouldn't it.
But the splitting of hairs amounts to the same doesn't it. The ownership at some point passed to the subscriber and cannot be subsequently nulled in a future new agreement and can now be retained by him/her without fear of any enforceable future charge.
I’d needs the Wayback Machine to recover BT’s T&Cs as they were then, but here, at least, is me quoting the exact wording:-
[Edit - see my post below. @jonesh provided us with a link to a contemporary set of BT T&Cs in the first post on page 3 of this thread, which also has the paragraph I was seeking.]
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
Comments
The new BT T&C are not very clear and have had 3 different replies for what I should do on here regarding sending or not sending the BT box back.
Darren that box is yours to do as you wish with. So as you have a use for it just keep using it. In 2018 BT supplied boxes for an initial upfront charge (I think typically between £0 and £49) and the residual amount ( Ie RRP minus initial payment) was a deferred payment which would be written off when the TV subscription was held for 12 months.
In December 2019 that changed so TV boxes supplied with TV subscriptions thereafter were on a loan basis so are contractually returnable.
So a box supplied in 2018 is not affected as Darren would have been the box owner back then and would have had the deferred payment written off 12 months thereafter .
If you contracted or RENEWED after 13/12/19 you have to return or pay...it really is that black and white.
Obviously ultimately no one really knows the answer.....so hold your nerve (best poker face) and just ignore the BT onslaught to hand it back.
Obviously BT are doing this to save the planet and not to spite those that dare to leave.
Fingers crossed they don't pursue it.
BT TV contract with Now ended nearly 4 days ago and yesterday afternoon I went with Now TV direct for same package with the discounts that I said above and canceled BT TV with Now.
My next BT bill is on 16th April.
https://community.youview.com/youview/discussion/comment/14889332#Comment_14889332
BT clearly and unequivocally stated in its T&Cs back then that ownership of the box transferred to the customer on receipt, unless they sent it back within the cooling off period.
On Day 1 note, not on completion of the minimum term or anything like that.
I don’t know if BT changed their T&Cs between then and 13/12/2019 to alter this rule at all; nor do I know if there is an archive of past T&Cs that can be consulted, though I do know that following links that once led to earlier T&Cs when they were current all lead to the current T&Cs.
@Darren, I would suggest that you decline to return the box to BT.
But most likely, they won’t even attempt to make the non-return charge, given that you had it under the old rules before they changed the T&Cs.
NB: this thread has the worst thread drift I have ever seen in all my years on the Community 😛
As requested, I am ignoring this post, because I really could not disagree with it more.
Thanks for your reply.
Still no offers on Entertainment or Sky Cinema. So will try again start of June when my 3 months at £5.99 a month for Entertainment and £5.99 a month for Sky Cinema is near the end.
June is probably the best month to get a mega deal as nearly all the Sky sports customers have gone (waiting for the new season) and not many movie or entertainment suber's bother watching in the summer months.
This is a course of action not open to those who take Now as part of BT TV, though paying the sticker prices does get them the ability to record the Now channels, albeit without the subtitles we would find essential.
[Edited as per @zulu17 ‘s correction, see below]
Ah, I didn’t know that; thanks, I stand corrected, as is my post above now.
@zulu17 never knew the Now channels via the Youview EPG had subtitles.
I take it the Now app via the Amazon Firesticks can have subtitles. Just not the Now app on the Youview box.
Specifically: "Closed captions for on-demand shows and movies are available on all supported devices except for the BT TV Box and YouView box." 😟
@kodiplod BT have not sent me out a returns bag as yet to return the Youview box. Its now been about 10 days since I cancelled The Now service with BT TV.
My BT TV service with Now is due to end in the next 12 days and lest I will be saving some money now being with Now direct for the same packages I was on with BT for BT TV.
My next BT bill in in 2 weeks time for my other BT services so will see what it says on the BT bill then.
I am afraid you are mistaken also 😢
Not about the irrevocable transfer of ownership, but about the timing of it.
The transfer will have taken place at the start of the first contract, not at the end of it.
Here’s me in 2015 referring to paragraph 12 in BT’s T&Cs as they were then.
With that wonderful thing, hindsight, I wish I had copied them in, as BT have a habit of changing where their URLs point to 😢
https://community.youview.com/youview/discussion/comment/15636350/#Comment_15636350
No, ownership transferred on receipt. If the customer sent the box back under the cooling off arrangement, then BT would accept ownership back.
But either way, ownership transferred on receipt.
After 14 days, BT would no longer accept the box back and forgive the debt; the customer remained liable for the contractual sum, and if BT had to pursue matters, they would be looking for the monetary settlement, and not chasing the customer for the box at all.
I can’t answer for set-asides on the contracts, and other disputes 😢
But I kind I’d got the impression that BT didn’t want the boxes back if things went south, just the money they were owed.
It’s quite possible that somebody in BT later agreed with you about the terms of the agreement though, given the highly misleading emails they were sending out about wanting their boxes back at the end of the contract. But legally, they didn’t have a leg to stand on, and if challenged would mumble about ‘just giving their customers the opportunity to recycle’ the boxes.
https://community.youview.com/youview/discussion/comment/14853167/#Comment_14853167
[Edit - see my post below. @jonesh provided us with a link to a contemporary set of BT T&Cs in the first post on page 3 of this thread, which also has the paragraph I was seeking.]