If you keep a subscription for which we supplied a set top box for 12
months or more, you will not have to pay anything for that set top box
if you later end the subscription for which the set top box was
supplied.
It doesn't say that after the twelve month period the box becomes yours, or that they won't ask you to send it back.
Is there a lawyer in the house?
Many kudos to @Jonesh for providing a still-working link to these.
See paragraph §50: “50. Unless you cancel your agreement as set out in paragraphs 10 and 11 of the Residential Standard Terms, you will own the Set Top Box and any other equipment needed to use the service from the date you receive it.”
I park my valise 😛
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
Not about the irrevocable transfer of ownership, but about the timing of it.
The transfer will have taken place at the start of the first contract, not at the end of it.
Thanks Roy,
Can you post the wording as I'd be interested to see it please.
Without reading it I presumed that the ownership was contingent on the contract being completed as this would seem the most logical approach of the agreement and that if for any reason it wasn't then the ownership remained with the service provider and had to be returned. It would be an extremely odd and badly written contract which said that if the subscriber made just one payment he could retain the box wouldn't it.
But the splitting of hairs amounts to the same doesn't it. The ownership at some point passed to the subscriber and cannot be subsequently nulled in a future new agreement and can now be retained by him/her without fear of any enforceable future charge.
I’d needs the Wayback Machine to recover BT’s T&Cs as they were then, but here, at least, is me quoting the exact wording:-
[Edit - see my post below. @jonesh provided us with a link to a contemporary set of BT T&Cs in the first post on page 3 of this thread, which also has the paragraph I was seeking.]
So, as I said .... it is a recoverable box and only becomes the subscribers property to retain and do as they wish after the final subscription is paid ...........
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
Not about the irrevocable transfer of ownership, but about the timing of it.
The transfer will have taken place at the start of the first contract, not at the end of it.
Thanks Roy,
Can you post the wording as I'd be interested to see it please.
Without reading it I presumed that the ownership was contingent on the contract being completed as this would seem the most logical approach of the agreement and that if for any reason it wasn't then the ownership remained with the service provider and had to be returned. It would be an extremely odd and badly written contract which said that if the subscriber made just one payment he could retain the box wouldn't it.
But the splitting of hairs amounts to the same doesn't it. The ownership at some point passed to the subscriber and cannot be subsequently nulled in a future new agreement and can now be retained by him/her without fear of any enforceable future charge.
I’d needs the Wayback Machine to recover BT’s T&Cs as they were then, but here, at least, is me quoting the exact wording:-
[Edit - see my post below. @jonesh provided us with a link to a contemporary set of BT T&Cs in the first post on page 3 of this thread, which also has the paragraph I was seeking.]
So, as I said .... it is a recoverable box and only becomes the subscribers property to retain and do as they wish after the final subscription is paid ...........
Are you perhaps imagining that paragraphs 10 and 11 of the Residential Standard Terms apply throughout the duration of the contract?
They don’t, they describe how the 14-day cooling off period works, have no application after that period, and don’t even have any application within it, if that option is not taken up by the customer.
‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris
If you keep a subscription for which we supplied a set top box for 12
months or more, you will not have to pay anything for that set top box
if you later end the subscription for which the set top box was
supplied.
It doesn't say that after the twelve month period the box becomes yours, or that they won't ask you to send it back.
Is there a lawyer in the house?
Many kudos to @Jonesh for providing a still-working link to these.
See paragraph §50: “50. Unless you cancel your agreement as set out in paragraphs 10 and 11 of the Residential Standard Terms, you will own the Set Top Box and any other equipment needed to use the service from the date you receive it.”
Afraid your mistaken Tim. Every time you renew you enter into a new agreement so the retrospective argument wouldn't wash. Darren just return it as you are in a very weakened position being billed by BT till next year. They will simply apply the charges to your broadband bill under extra charges/equipment, think it's around £100. You can easily replace it or even upgrade to a pro from ebay.
I'm afraid you are mistaken and the earlier post is correct.
At the end of the first contract the ownership of the box passed contractually and irrevocably to the customer. It was his/her property and at that point no one can take it away.
The follow on contract can say whatever it wants but it is simply uneforceable under UK consumer legislation if it attempts to take property that now belongs to someone else. The new agreement simply effects new customers on the new contract and removes their ownership of their boxes.
Not about the irrevocable transfer of ownership, but about the timing of it.
The transfer will have taken place at the start of the first contract, not at the end of it.
Thanks Roy,
Can you post the wording as I'd be interested to see it please.
Without reading it I presumed that the ownership was contingent on the contract being completed as this would seem the most logical approach of the agreement and that if for any reason it wasn't then the ownership remained with the service provider and had to be returned. It would be an extremely odd and badly written contract which said that if the subscriber made just one payment he could retain the box wouldn't it.
But the splitting of hairs amounts to the same doesn't it. The ownership at some point passed to the subscriber and cannot be subsequently nulled in a future new agreement and can now be retained by him/her without fear of any enforceable future charge.
I’d needs the Wayback Machine to recover BT’s T&Cs as they were then, but here, at least, is me quoting the exact wording:-
[Edit - see my post below. @jonesh provided us with a link to a contemporary set of BT T&Cs in the first post on page 3 of this thread, which also has the paragraph I was seeking.]
So, as I said .... it is a recoverable box and only becomes the subscribers property to retain and do as they wish after the final subscription is paid ...........
Are you perhaps imagining that paragraphs 10 and 11 of the Residential Standard Terms apply throughout the duration of the contract?
They don’t, they describe how the 14-day cooling off period works, have no application after that period, and don’t even have any application within it, if that option is not taken up by the customer.
Roy, I think you are overlooking the practicialities of the wider contract. He has an annual agreement for which he has signed an obligation to pay for if he doesn't exercise his right to cancel during the "cooling off" period.
If a customer in compliance with the agreement as you envisage decided to make a single payment and wait 15 days and then in clear breach of the contract make no further payments, then BT would expect to receive full payment for the remaining amount due. He would receive credit chasing demands of increasing seriousness.
If the customer felt that he had a genuine and viable excuse not to pay then he would rightly be expected by BT (and for his own protection) to make his complaint known at the earliest moment before he cancelled any payments in order to give BT the reasonable opportunity to correct any alleged service lapses who would expect payments to continue whilst they tried.
That would flush out a genuine and honest and reasonable customer who is genuinley agreived and have a decent excuse for breaking the contract.
If the customer simply decided to keep the box and make no further payments unreasonably he would be pursued for the balance of the contract and BT would be most likely successful in that pursuit. If it went as far as court then it would likely be decided in BT's favour unless they really had been in breach of their side of the agreement and were given the opportunity to correct it and failed. Once BT was paid for the year then they would have no problem at all with customer keeping the box and the customer would now have paid top dollar for it and have earned a poor credit record.
That is the most likely outcome if the customer unreasonably cancelled the agreement from 15 days and refused to pay the remainder of the contract in order to unjustifiably retain the box.
I agree with nearly every word you say above, describing as it does a BT that would chase for the money contractually owed, but not chase for the return of the box.
Earlier in the thread, I said:- ”After 14 days, BT would no longer accept the box back and forgive the debt; the customer remained liable for the contractual sum, and if BT had to pursue matters, they would be looking for the monetary settlement, and not chasing the customer for the box at all.” as part of
I agree with nearly every word you say above, describing as it does a BT that would chase for the money contractually owed, but not chase for the return of the box.
Earlier in the thread, I said:- ”After 14 days, BT would no longer accept the box back and forgive the debt; the customer remained liable for the contractual sum, and if BT had to pursue matters, they would be looking for the monetary settlement, and not chasing the customer for the box at all.” as part of
I think I'd detected a growing but perhaps incorrect impression that it was being suggested that the box could be bought for a single payment and thought it wise to flesh out why this might be incorrect.
Comments
See paragraph §50:
“50. Unless you cancel your agreement as set out in paragraphs 10 and 11 of the Residential Standard Terms, you will own the Set Top Box and any other equipment needed to use the service from the date you receive it.”
I park my valise 😛
So, as I said .... it is a recoverable box and only becomes the subscribers property to retain and do as they wish after the final subscription is paid ...........
Are you perhaps imagining that paragraphs 10 and 11 of the Residential Standard Terms apply throughout the duration of the contract?
They don’t, they describe how the 14-day cooling off period works, have no application after that period, and don’t even have any application within it, if that option is not taken up by the customer.
I agree with nearly every word you say above, describing as it does a BT that would chase for the money contractually owed, but not chase for the return of the box.
Earlier in the thread, I said:-
”After 14 days, BT would no longer accept the box back and forgive the debt; the customer remained liable for the contractual sum, and if BT had to pursue matters, they would be looking for the monetary settlement, and not chasing the customer for the box at all.”
as part of
Pretty much the same thing, wouldn’t you say?