Comments

• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  17 September 2022, 9:05AM edited 17 September 2022, 4:21PM

  Greetings @CharlieS, and welcome to the Community!
  
  The DTR-T1000 is now a rather old box, and it has been superseded as you know, but it has not been obsoleted, and should still do much of what it did originally, with the exceptions that the app-based remote recording feature no longer works, and you can’t get the itv Hub any longer. And maybe a couple of other things I can’t bring to mind at the moment.
  
  It won’t run any of the new stuff like Prime Video though, and what it does still run won’t transition as smoothly as on the later boxes.
  
  However, these T1000 boxes don’t have a good reputation for reliability; specifically, the capacitors go out of spec, though there are several places on the web where you can find instructions on how to replace them.
  
  But now to your YVM104 (sic). Have you worked through:-
  https://support.youview.com/youview-box/error-messages/fix-for-yvm104/
  

  
  

  That’s pretty comprehensive, though it doesn’t mention Maintenance Mode:-
  https://support.youview.com/youview-box/box-and-remote/using-maintenance-mode/
  

  The use of this to rescue a box that is failing to reach the internet has to be considered with care though, as even an Option 2 will try to reach the YouView servers during recovery and will hang if it can’t, necessitating some assistance from YouView if this happens even on the later boxes, let alone the original DTR-T1000.
  

  
  But the inability of a YouView box to transfer HD material to a safe haven (you can recover the SD material as it is on the disc in clear) has always been a weakness, even if it is a case of the copy protection rules getting in the way of consumer satisfaction, rather than any omission on YouView’s part.
  
  If you have or can get an analogue recorder with Component In, then you can move your HD stuff off the DTR-T1000, at real-time speed, by using an HDMI to Component converter; this will at least preserve its HD resolution, though it will become analogue.
  
  As regards attaching a file, I take it you have found the paper clip icon in the heading when posting, but the file type is not acceptable? In which case, you could perhaps put the file somewhere publicly accessible and link to it? That should be no more of a security risk that attaching it to a publicly accessible posting here.
  
  Though who is going to plough through it and make any sense of it, I don’t know; this Community by and large doesn’t do the deep dive required. And on the Now Community, we frequently find that a poster’s inability to get Now working is a self-inflicted wound caused by their own layers of security; and so we recommend that they try, at least temporarily, turning as much off this off as they dare; using a plain vanilla Chrome configuration instead of a Firefox one tricked out with ad blockers and the like; switching to a different AV even for the moment (Bitdefender thinks the Now app is a virus!), and so on.

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• Darren Member, Super User Posts: 702 ✭✭

  17 September 2022, 10:54AM edited 17 September 2022, 10:55AM

  As Roy says the T1000 is now old and no longer supports some of the apps. As well as no longer supporting the remote recording app.
  If you want to use apps. I would look at getting yourself an Amazon Firestick. I love my Amazon Firesticks and use them more then the Youview box for apps
  Your T1000 should still work fine for watching and recording the Freeview channels.
  My T1000 packed in a good 4 or 5 years ago.
  BT now seem to be doing more support for their newer pro box,. Then the Youview boxes that originally replaced the T1000 boxes.
  I think though time support will also be dropped for the T2100 /T2110 boxes.
  I also use the Digital Spy forums and that site dont seem to like the use of ad blocker apps. Not that I have ever used an ad blocker app on my laptop thats now over 6 years old but some used to post about ad blocker apps slowing down the Digital Spy forums.

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• kodikid Member Posts: 1,114 ✭✭

  17 September 2022, 2:18PM edited 17 September 2022, 2:20PM

  Don't think BT have an obligation to support any retail boxes. 
  If you subscribe to bt tv I doubt if you're be in possession of a T1000 anyway. 
  BT youview support would obviously be for BT tv customers. 

  Deacon Blue hit from October 88

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  17 September 2022, 4:41PM

  kodikid said:

  Don't think BT have an obligation to support any retail boxes. 
  If you subscribe to bt tv I doubt if you're be in possession of a T1000 anyway. 
  BT youview support would obviously be for BT tv customers. 

  @kodikid
  
  BT supplied DTR-T1000s to all its initial subscribers.
  
  They all instantly became the property of those subscribers, so even if those subscribers carried on with BT TV and were given, or lent, later boxes, the T1000s would still be in those subscribers’ possession, unless they disposed of them, or were misled into sending them back to BT, although they didn’t have to.
  
  But yes, for any Princess Leia still running a T1000, we are her only hope…,

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  17 September 2022, 10:12PM

  Hello Roy, Kodikid, Darren;
              thanks for the responses.
  
  I have been through the steps listed in https://support.youview.com/youview-box/error-messages/fix-for-yvm104/ ; which is why I ended up posting to this forum.
  
  Since I do not have a BT TV subscription I do not think BT help is going to be productive. ( & FTR, I bought the DTR-T1000 originally when they obsoleted the very 1st generation PVR box & tried arm-twisting a subscription in return for sending a replacement).
  
  I read a lot of the posts about Option 2 issues, and failed capacitors: if a capacitor has failed, it is most likely to render complete hardware sub-systems inoperative.
  
  The current lack of BBC iPlayer, programme summaries and picto-grams for pre-recorded programmes is most likely to be due to the software running on the MIPs CPU not having some of the information it needs to activate those functions; eg no internet communication to / from specific servers.
  
  @Roy, you mentioned "Option 2 will try to reach the YouView servers during recovery and will hang if it can’t, necessitating some assistance from YouView if this happens".
  
  How can Youview be contacted ? both with respect to the "rescue from failed Option 2" topic, and to get their view on the networking related items highlighted in my initial post ?
  
  I have uploaded the pcap files to : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FjCu8rQIb8KnXVJhMa9jB7v4N6527YdH/view?usp=sharing
  
  thanks &
  regards,
           Charlie.
  
  

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  17 September 2022, 11:24PM edited 18 September 2022, 8:38AM

  @CharlieS
  
  YouView staffers monitor the Community, and will intercede where necessary and relevant.
  
  But our normal level of discourse for YVM104 is
  Can you get to the router?
  Can you get through the router?
  and if the answer to the second question is ‘No’, regard a dig into the network traffic as unlikely to carry the issue much further 😢
  
  Rereading your original post, though, have you by any chance got a friend or family member who is not with BT, where you could take your box round, and try it on a different ISP?
  
  I’ve got one YouView box that is working over a nanorouter, so I could hook it on a WiFi hotspot to EE or O2 broadband if I were to suspect a problem with BT.
  
  That’s not an option open for a YouView box on a wired connection, of course, but if you had a nanorouter lying about, you could try that.

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• jonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭

  18 September 2022, 6:12PM edited 18 September 2022, 6:13PM

  @Roy

  The problem with Charlie's box might be different, but @Stephen said in this post that a box needs to be still supported with software updates for him to be able to help out. He also said that the box that is the subject of the thread was restored to a useable (no networking) state. The situation might have changed since then.
  

  @CharlieS
  

  BBC iPlayer works on our T1000, including the press green button to re-start the current programme. Credit to Youview and the BBC for maintaining the service on a ten year old model.
  

  You mentioned in your original post that loss of material recorded on the box is an issue. Are you still able to watch your recordings? If you can, you might be better off leaving your box as it is and watching your recordings, rather than risking an option 2 maintenance mode reset that it might not be able to complete.
  

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  19 September 2022, 3:52PM

  Roy, Jonesh;
                 thanks for these updates.
  
  To answer your questions :
  
  1. "can you get to/through the router" : assuming "you" is from the viewpoint of the DTR-T1000, the answer (visible in the pcap files) is "yes & yes". DTR-T1000 is issuing DNS requests; receiving replies, then initiating HTTP & HTTPS connections to what I assume are Youview servers..
  
  But using only the information displayed by DTR-T1000 on the TV screen ( & maybe your router/gateway management GUI page), a user can only see that the DTR-T1000 is being assigned the IP address allocated by the gateway; & "complaints" that it cannot reach the internet (eg when pressing the big blue "Youview" button , instead of getting the row of pictograms under "Guide" showing what is currently being broadcast, there is a text message including words about not reaching the internet).
  
  2. DTR-1000 connection via a different ISP : to be researched in terms of a "real wired/fibre" connection , but "yes, will try" for a connection over an EE mobile broadband link (using a non-BT router and Android 'phone with EE SIM), & maybe Vodafone / Giffgaff  .. EE is owned by BT, but I do not know to what extent EE fixed infra-structure is using BT infra-structure (in terms of backhaul links + network elements) these days..
  
  I am not sure what a "nano-router" is, but my set-up will allow a Wireshark trace/pcap file of the traffic exchanged between the DTR-T1000 & mobile network (even though the DTR-T1000 is an ethernet-only connection).
  
  3. Yes, the existing recordings can be watched, and new scheduled recordings are made.
  
  ========= NEW INFORMATION =========
  
  I think this "proves" that nothing is "wrong" in my DTR-T1000. & also means any "works vs fails" information from tests on other ISP links I may be able to access has to be repeated over several trials to be sure it is not "a glitch"..
  
  We got back from holiday last night, and watched a programme that had been recorded whilst away; the "My TV -> Recordings" screen shows titles of existing recordings, in "empty black boxes"; ie no change from  box state compared to early September when I gathered the information for this thread.
  
  TV + DTR-T1000 were powered off when we had finished (this is the usual modus-operandi).
  
  The TV+DTR-T1000 was turned on this morning to watch/record the funeral; & I "took a look" around mid-day, & noticed that :
  
  -- press "big blue Youview button" ; the pictograms for currently broadcast programmes were being shown;
  
  -- existing recordings now have appropriate pictograms
  
  -- Players&Apps + "BT Player" menus now show the usual pictograms (I will check for iPlayer functionality later today).
  
  TBD if this "recovered internet connectivity" remains permanently ; and what the impact is of closing the gateway firewall ports (gateway configuration is currently unchanged compared to start of September; opening the firewall ports resulted in the DTR-T1000 internet connectivity appearing to be correct for 1 day, before the "no internet" behaviour returned apparently permanently.
  
  TBD also if there is some issue in the BT gateway that is impacted by firewall port opening (I have noted/investigated some other issues with BT gateway devices).
  
  So, we are left with the questions that I expect only the Youview staffers can answer:
  
  = did something change in the Youview delivery infra-structure, late August and / or "over-night" 18th/19th September, that impacts the DTR-T1000 "internet connectivity" functionality ?
  
  = what should happen ? (in terms of network traffic) when the DTR-T1000 makes internet accesses (related to pictogram display and iPlayer start-up) ?
  
  (I may be able to part answer this myself if functionality is still correct after re-instating my equipement to collect the pcap traces).
  
  If nothing has changed in the "Youview domain", & we know what is expected to happen (from DTR-T1000 perspective) I may be able to "discuss" with BT..
  
  thanks again &
  regards,
          Charlie.
  
  

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  19 September 2022, 5:21PM

  @CharlieS
  
  The pictograms, or thumbnails as we call them, are sourced from YouView’s servers. They are not stored on the YouView boxes, so all your thumbnails will blink out when internet connection is lost.
  
  Often, this is the first sign anyone (who isn’t actually trying to use the internet for catchup) will see that their internet has gone down, whether totally or just from the YouView box.
  
  Conversely, their sudden reappearance may be the first sign that the internet connection has been restored, as has happened for you, and I would expect that if it lasts, you will find the players work again.
  
  With an old T1000 though, you should very much be careful of assuming that configuration changes you make are what is altering things; it could equally be that the hardware is going on and off the blink 😢

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• jonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭

  19 September 2022, 6:23PM edited 19 September 2022, 7:54PM

  @CharlieS
  

  If your DTR-T1000 Youview box has been in use for a few years, its capacitors will be out of spec.
  

  The caps used in those boxes are notorious for drifting off their intended specification. Some early boxes failed after a few months use.
  

  Out of spec capacitors can cause unpredictable and intermittent problems. 
  

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  19 September 2022, 11:39PM

  The DTR-T1000 was put into sleep/stand-by mode (orange circle) around 6pm ; and "woken up" around 9pm, at which point we were back to the "no internet" symptoms.
  
  @Roy; I am "very confident" that this is not caused by intermittent "real internet connectivity issues" at my end, since the gateway management page does not indicate any line drop ( & I know it does when there is a small interruption, due to an earlier intermittent fault that is fixed..) ; & none of the other devices here using the internet today indicate any connectivity issues.
  
  How does the DTR-T1000 know which YouView server to contact in order to retrieve the thumbnails ? You can see in the pcaps several DNS requests sent out by the DTR-T1000 for various YouView server addresses; and the responses; and at least 1 instance of one of them being contacted, and supplying in response what looks like programme summary information.... so why does the DTR-T1000 say eg "Guide Preview unavailable..." ?? (I will try a specific test with the traffic capture set-up where I know what time I am pressing the big blue Youview button, to correlate with what is seen in the pcap files..)
  
  @Jonesh; I have a lot of experience at the "customer problem solving end" of chip company support organizations (specifically, CPU chips..) & I am  aware of:
  
  - the importance of proper PSU rail decoupling/filtering; and how lack of it can result in random bizarre programme failures (because you cannot predict when the CPU is so busy that the bad decoupling results in out-of-spec supply rail(s)).
  
  - the relatively small difference in programme activity when finding and accessing different internet servers; and displaying images etc sourced from the DVB Tuner interface vs ethernet vs internal disk.
  
  Since the failure symptom is consistent, I think "bad capacitors" is an unlikely root cause.
  
  Information from YouView on "what to expect" would help identify "unexpected DTR-T1000 behaviour" ; if this is observed, then we can start asking ourselves "could this be due to bad capacitors"..
  
  thanks &
  regards,
            Charlie
  
  

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  20 September 2022, 8:35AM

  @CharlieS
  
  In “whether totally or just from the YouView box” the “totally” was for completeness, and not to suggest that your particular issue goes beyond the box in any way 😛
  
  Where are you getting “Guide Preview Unavailable”?

  
  

  A thing to know here, from published information, is that the forward EPG as sent over terrestrial transmitters is enhanced with metadata sent over the internet from YouView’s servers, when available to you. The box will show this information if it is received, but will fall back to the terrestrial-only information, without error or comment, if it isn’t.
  
  Perhaps this has been what you were seeing?
  
  But in general, if you can get anything at all over the internet, you can get everything, barring problems at YouView’s end that I would expect to have several people reporting issues here, not just yourself.

  
  

  You talk about consistent failure, but it seems like your box blinked back into internet connectivity for a while, and then lost it again? We then have to weigh up two competing hypotheses; 
  that BT’s internet or YouView’s servers suddenly stopped doing wrong whatever you suspect one or both might have been doing wrong, and then started doing it again a few hours later;
  that your T1000 isn’t consistently failing.
  
  The first is not impossible, sure; but which is more likely?
  
  Lastly, I’m a bit puzzled how to answer “How does the DTR-T1000 know which YouView server to contact in order to retrieve the thumbnails ?”
  
  The short answer might be “because it’s programmed to”, but I am aware that you might be looking for an answer of the form “it connects to server A which directs it to the thumbnail farm on servers B to G where load balancer server H tells it which of B to G it should use for this particular lookup”.
  
  In which case, I wouldn’t know, and YouView might not want to tell us 😢

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• jonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭

  20 September 2022, 5:40PM

  CharlieS said:

  Since the failure symptom is consistent, I think "bad capacitors" is an unlikely root cause.
  
  Information from YouView on "what to expect" would help identify "unexpected DTR-T1000 behaviour" ; if this is observed, then we can start asking ourselves "could this be due to bad capacitors"..
  
  thanks &
  regards,
            Charlie
  

  @CharlieS

  Whether bad capacitors is the cause of the problem or not, it isn't worth spending much time on a a faulty DTR-T1000 that still has its original 10 mainboard caps (not PSU). 
  

  If you are unable to do the job yourself, or you don't know somebody who is able to do it for you at modest cost, then it isn't worth spending time on a faulty T1000 at all.

  After it has been set up a Youview box doesn't need an internet connection to work as a PVR. The lack of thumbnails is of little consequence and devices with much more capability than a T1000 are available for streaming TV.
  

  You are able to play back recordings that you have made, so watch them while you can. The hard drive of a T1000 is not a secure storage space for archived recordings.
  

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  30 September 2022, 10:57AM

  Hello Roy & Jonesh ;
                     I have run some more tests and captured detailed information using a router/gateway that directly supports packet capture; and USB tethering to a 'phone so that eg an EE network can be used in place of the BT internet.
   
  - The test over the EE network results in the same "no internet" complaint (for 1 trial run).
   
  - testing over the BT network, I have one packet trace showing what happens when the DTR-T1000 starts and the iPlayer + thumbnails functions are working correctly ; and several traces for the "do not work" case.
   
  - in all cases, the DTR-T1000 is first exchanging data with Youview servers using SSL (so I cannot see/interpret the content); eg errormessage-reporting.youview.tv and yv1-api.youview.tv ; data is exchanged without any sign of error, so clearly the internet connectivity is working correctly.
   
  - for the "iPlayer + thumbnails ok" case, the difference compared to the error case is that the DTR-T1000 then additionally contacts broadcast.live.bbctvapps.co.uk , images-live.youview.tv & ipchannels-reporting.youview.tv servers .
   
  - Note that in the fail case, there is no attempt to contact these additional servers; ie no DNS query
   
  Can the Youview staffers comment on the content of the error report messages sent to them by my DTR-T1000; & what information is sent back to my DTR-T1000 by the yv1-api.youview.tv server ?   I can provide exact times that these transactions occurred and the DTR-T1000 serial # to enable precise identification..
   
  This information will help determine whether faulty capacitors are the cause, or something else, for example at the Youview server end of the connection.
  
  If the DTR-T1000 is "hard coded" to contact the images-live etc servers, this will happen on every boot/start-up sequence; if there are some faulty components on the board, "hard failures" result in permanent mal-function ; intermittent failure will result in intermittent mal-function, but very rarely exactly the same mal-function on every trial (where that mal-function is a failure to correctly execute a hard coded programme).
  

  
  

  The most likely "failure scenario" here is that for some reason, the Youview servers are not sending the same information to my DTR-T1000 every time.

  
  

  Roy asks exactly the right question, "why is this not reported by more people" : but for the lack of reports from others today to be "significant", we need to know how many DTR-T1000's are still live on the network: Youview staffers should be able to comment on this, since the packet traces indicate that the device contacts Youview servers (giving it's identity information) on every boot/start-up sequence.
  

  
  

  thanks &
  regards,
             Charlie
  
  

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  30 September 2022, 2:04PM edited 30 September 2022, 2:08PM

  @CharlieS (and FYI @jonesh)
  
  If I were to reverse one of your sentences above, thus :-
  
  “The most likely "failure scenario" here is that for some reason, my DTR-T1000 is not sending the same information to the Youview servers every time”
  
  would this be an untenable hypothesis?

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  12 November 2022, 7:27PM

  Hello Roy, Jonesh;

                                    this is why we need some input from the Youview staffers ; their error message server is receiving the reports sent by my box, so it knows the content , & can confirm whether they "look like bad capacitor" messages, or "something else".

  
  

  FYI the internet connectivity is now back to "working most of the time" ( & therefore thumbnails + Apps / players like iPlayer); nothing has changed at this end except I enabled the option to display channel icons (when viewing the EPG).

  
  

  For example today, powered the box up, tuned to some non-BBC channel;  saw initial YMV10x message about "no internet" ; changed to BBC1 ; & shortly after that got the "press green to watch from start" alert, which confirmed that internet connectivity had in fact been established...

  
  

  thanks &
  regards,

            Charlie
  

  
  

  
  

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  12 November 2022, 10:53PM edited 12 November 2022, 10:54PM

  @CharlieS
  
  I remain of the opinion that where the two competing hypotheses are ‘the YouView servers are having intermittent issues which no-one but me is noticing’ and ‘my very old YouView box, of a model known to have a high failure rate, is having intermittent issues’, Occam’s Razor would lean us toward the second hypothesis.
  
  And while the presence of thumbnails is a pretty reliable indicator of internet connectivity, it was only this morning that my wife and I were debating whether the ‘Press Green’ was just something that the BBC were broadcasting mechanically, on Smart TVs at least, or whether it did genuinely indicate that the TV had just checked that the BBC iPlayer was present and available, and found that it was.

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  17 November 2022, 7:32PM

  Hello Roy;

                  I am not just using the "press green" indicator as a sign that the "internet access is OK" ; I also check the thumbnails.

  
  

  & the "press green" indicator is a very useful "live" indicator when you are watching a BBC channel, as we were yesterday evening. After powering everything up and noting "no internet today" , we were watching the BBCx sometime later & "press green" appeared spontaneously part way through a programme.
  

  
  

  It seems this feature is called "live re-start" on the BBC web-site (see eg https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/smart-tv-and-games-console-issues/watch-from-start-info ) ; & the way I read the explanations in that + related pages is that when you first tune to a BBC channel, the device compares the time now against programme start time, and then offers the green button on screen for about 30 seconds (after you tuned to the BBC channel).

  So the fact that we saw it appear after N * 10 minutes of watching suggests that the TV is continually trying to reach some server (TBD if it is a Youview or BBC server) ; & when it succeeds & finds a "live re-start " option is available, you will see the button.

  
  

  This is not the same as the "on demand" player ie iPlayer ... which I am unable to load/start if the DTR-T1000 is in it's "no internet today" mode..

  
  

  For the avoidance of doubt; I am not suggesting that the Youview or BBC servers are intermittently faulty on an on-going basis that affects only my device; although either could suffer from "outages" .

  
  

  The Youview server in particular could provide some very helpful information about my DTR-T1000.

  thanks &

  regards,
                     Charlie.
  

  
  

  
  

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• jonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭

  17 November 2022, 10:46PM edited 17 November 2022, 10:48PM

  CharlieS said:

  Hello Roy;

                  I am not just using the "press green" indicator as a sign that the "internet access is OK" ; I also check the thumbnails.

  
  

  & the "press green" indicator is a very useful "live" indicator when you are watching a BBC channel, as we were yesterday evening. After powering everything up and noting "no internet today" , we were watching the BBCx sometime later & "press green" appeared spontaneously part way through a programme.
  

  
  

  It seems this feature is called "live re-start" on the BBC web-site (see eg https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/smart-tv-and-games-console-issues/watch-from-start-info ) ; & the way I read the explanations in that + related pages is that when you first tune to a BBC channel, the device compares the time now against programme start time, and then offers the green button on screen for about 30 seconds (after you tuned to the BBC channel).

  So the fact that we saw it appear after N * 10 minutes of watching suggests that the TV is continually trying to reach some server (TBD if it is a Youview or BBC server) ; & when it succeeds & finds a "live re-start " option is available, you will see the button.

  
  

  This is not the same as the "on demand" player ie iPlayer ... which I am unable to load/start if the DTR-T1000 is in it's "no internet today" mode..

  
  

  For the avoidance of doubt; I am not suggesting that the Youview or BBC servers are intermittently faulty on an on-going basis that affects only my device; although either could suffer from "outages" .

  
  

  The Youview server in particular could provide some very helpful information about my DTR-T1000.

  thanks &

  regards,
                     Charlie.
  

  @CharlieS,

  What helpful information do you think that the Youview server could provide you with? 

  If it told you that your box has an intermittent fault, what would you do?

  DTR-T1000s have a poor reliability record. Yours is showing signs of hardware failure.

  You are lucky that your box is still working as well as it is, so watch your recordings while you still can.
  

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  17 November 2022, 11:34PM edited 23 December 2022, 10:58PM

  @CharlieS
  
  What ‘press Green’ drops you into is, I think, exactly what you would get if you started the IPlayer and chose to watch ‘live’ from start (or 2 hours ago if the programme has been running longer).
  
  The BBC say they decide to put the message out based on the time you start watching as compared with the schedules start time of the programme.
  
  This I might take to mean that the BBC does not even check if you have a smart TV, let alone whether you have the iPlayer or an internet connection, working or not.
  
  I am aware that the presence of thumbnails is a reliable indicator that a given YouView box has an active internet connection.

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  23 December 2022, 10:25PM

  @Jonesh;
      I have collected quite a few packet traces to see how the behaviour of my DTR-T1000 differs between the "internet ok" occasions vs "internet NOK".
  
  There seem to be 2 "patterns" for "internet NOK" occasions ; either the DTR-T1000 sends only MDNS and IGMPv3 packets ( & no attempt to contact Youview or BBC servers) ; OR the DTR-T1000 contacts several servers including the error-reporting server (but not the images server for thumbnails or BBC iPlayer etc).
  
  So if we knew the content of the error report, we may have an indication of why the DTR-T1000 is sometimes failing to reach out to these particular servers.
  
  Why do you think my box is showing signs of hardware failure ? What type of hardware failure could prevent it from attempting to contact some servers, some of the time ? And do not prevent it from waking up from stand-by mode at 2am / 4am and sending data back to various Youview servers ?
  
  Can anyone here comment on what determines the sequence of internet accesses made as the DTR-T1000 starts up ?
  
  The "unpredictable behaviour" (of internet access only) whilst viewing of live TV or previously recorded content seems fine is more likely to be due to a software bug than a hardware bug.
  
  I do not expect a fix for software issues from the Youview team given the age of the product; but if information is available about the conditions that lead up to triggering of the bug, it may be possible for me to use the DTR-T1000 in a way that avoids triggering the bug.
  
  @Roy;
      yes, "press green" could be the same as starting iPlayer & playing from the programme start.
  
  The "really interesting question" is "what is needed for the DTR-T1000 to display the "green button" prompt?  "
  
  thanks &
  regards,
      Charlie
  
  

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• jonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭

  24 December 2022, 6:27PM

  CharlieS said:

  @Jonesh;
      I have collected quite a few packet traces to see how the behaviour of my DTR-T1000 differs between the "internet ok" occasions vs "internet NOK".
  
  There seem to be 2 "patterns" for "internet NOK" occasions ; either the DTR-T1000 sends only MDNS and IGMPv3 packets ( & no attempt to contact Youview or BBC servers) ; OR the DTR-T1000 contacts several servers including the error-reporting server (but not the images server for thumbnails or BBC iPlayer etc).
  
  So if we knew the content of the error report, we may have an indication of why the DTR-T1000 is sometimes failing to reach out to these particular servers.
  
  Why do you think my box is showing signs of hardware failure ? What type of hardware failure could prevent it from attempting to contact some servers, some of the time ? And do not prevent it from waking up from stand-by mode at 2am / 4am and sending data back to various Youview servers ?
  
  Can anyone here comment on what determines the sequence of internet accesses made as the DTR-T1000 starts up ?
  
  The "unpredictable behaviour" (of internet access only) whilst viewing of live TV or previously recorded content seems fine is more likely to be due to a software bug than a hardware bug.
  
  I do not expect a fix for software issues from the Youview team given the age of the product; but if information is available about the conditions that lead up to triggering of the bug, it may be possible for me to use the DTR-T1000 in a way that avoids triggering the bug.
  
  @Roy;
      yes, "press green" could be the same as starting iPlayer & playing from the programme start.
  
  The "really interesting question" is "what is needed for the DTR-T1000 to display the "green button" prompt?  "
  
  thanks &
  regards,
      Charlie
  

  @CharlieS,

  I think that your box is showing signs of hardware failure because it isn't working properly.

  I doubt your software bug theory because I am not aware of any other reports of the problems that you are experiencing with your box.

  I have got a T1000 in daily use. It is working correctly.
  

  If the issues that you report were down to a software bug, my box would have shown at least some of them in the almost ten years that I have had it. It hasn't.
  

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  26 December 2022, 7:58PM

  @jonesh ;

                  the use patterns of our respective units are probably different; if there is a software bug, maybe it is specific to my usage pattern (eg always powered off overnight; no factory mode resets, disk free space...). The issue could be due to a combination of hardware + software factors; eg the characteristics of the ethernet link between our respective T1000's and broadband gateways.

  
  

  There have been several other reports on this and other forums of "Humax cannot reach internet" issues that are not due to basic connectivity issues.
  

  
  

  Without specific proof of hardware vs software bug, "how to debug" steps are driven by the debugger's own instinct + experience.

  
  

  regards,

              Charlie
  

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  27 December 2022, 12:30AM

  @CharlieS
  
  
  

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• Stevef_fr8ys Member, Super User Posts: 773 ✭✭

  27 December 2022, 10:35AM

  @CharlieS
  
  It wasn't until i read your last post that I realised you powered down your box each night.
  
  The boxes were designed to stay powered on all the time to receive automatic updates etc.
  
  Are you doing this to avoid updates, for example to retain the original style user interface? 
  
  Therein could be an issue in using the box in an unintended way.
  
  

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• John L Member, Super User Posts: 933 ✭✭

  27 December 2022, 1:17PM

  Stevef_fr8ys said:

  @CharlieS
  
  It wasn't until i read your last post that I realised you powered down your box each night.
  
  Therein could be an issue in using the box in an unintended way.
  
  

  Well, problem solved! Pvrs are built to be kept on overnight, especially Youview products. 
  
  @CharlieS, no wonder you have experienced update problems. Even my old DVD Recorder needs to come on overnight to fully populate the EPG for the whole week. That's the way they are designed. John L

  Can't wait for the day when Youview get rid of the dreaded darkened banner when using fast forward/rewind recordings. 

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• CharlieS Member Posts: 10 ✭

  27 December 2022, 4:14PM

  Hello @John L, @Stevef_fr8ys ;

                                                            thanks for your constructive comments.

  
  

  The reason for powering off the DTR-T1000 overnight is simply "save on power" & "minimize fire risk". Whilst digging into this issue, I have left it on overnight a couple of times, to confirm it does "wake itself up" from the stand-by state and exchange information with some Youview servers; but despite this, the intermittent "internet functionality" behaviour continues.
  

  
  

  I can follow the logic of your comments; but the last DTR-T1000 software update release was made "a long time ago" according to the Youview website (I will double check version #'s later today)  & this "incorrect no internet" report/functionality behaviour by the DTR-T1000 only started occurring earlier this year.

  This is why I thought initially that the issue may be related to some change in the Youview server behaviour ; or behaviour of the interconnecting network.

   

  After collecting / analysing the pcap file traces from a number of start-ups of my DTR-T1000, the answer to the following questions would be significant / helpful :

  
  

  - what determines the list of servers that the DTR-T1000 contacts as it starts up ? (both from power-on, and exit stand-by) ?

  - when the DTR-T1000 is active (ie live terrestrial TV or recording being watched), what is the expected / normal pattern of internet access ?
  

  
  

  thanks &
  regards,
             Charlie.
  

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• Roy Member, Super User Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭

  27 December 2022, 5:13PM edited 27 December 2022, 5:15PM

  Hi @CharlieS
  
  If you can get hold of a circuit diagram for your T1000 (I’ve looked on the web, but with no success), this will likely indicate the expected voltages at certain points on the circuitry.
  
  I would predict that these are fluctuating, due to deteriorating capacitors on your T1000, something this box is notorious for, and is utterly not helped by not maintaining the box in a consistent powered-on state; every morning power-on is a jolt to the circuitry that it does not need.
  
  Ideally, you should get the caps replaced, as you have been encouraged to do; at the very least you should stop the powering down overnight, and see if things improve.
  
  For what little it’s worth, I have a 2015 Samsung TV, with a faulty One Connect box that causes picture breakup on terrestrial TV after it has been on (from standby) after 30 minutes or so. But it does not do this on Freesat, which we are perfectly happy to use it on, accordingly.
  
  I ascribe the problem to a temperature-related issue in the terrestrial circuitry. I do not ascribe it to an issue with terrestrial broadcasting that only I suffer from; and would not ascribe it so even if other users reported it.
  
  As the box was fine until I dropped a bottle of wine on it 😢
  (Purely physical shock; the bottle did not break)

  ‘Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful’ Wm Morris

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• jonesh Member, Super User Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭

  27 December 2022, 6:14PM edited 27 December 2022, 6:44PM

  @CharlieS,
  

  The high-eco standby power consumption of a Youview box is less than 1W, which works out at less than 25p a month at current  energy prices if the box is left on (high-eco standby, edit) continuously.
  

  The last software update for DTR-T10x0 boxes was in August 2020.

  
  
  
  

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• John L Member, Super User Posts: 933 ✭✭

  27 December 2022, 6:50PM

  jonesh said:

  @CharlieS,
  

  The high-eco standby power consumption of a Youview box is less than 1W, which works out at less than 25p a month at current  energy prices if the box is left on (high-eco standby, edit) continuously.
  

  The last software update for DTR-T10x0 boxes was in August 2020.

  
  
  
  

  Hi @jonesh 25p? That's cheaper than new capacitors! That's a "bargain", even with the energy prices at the moment. Totally agree with you though. John L

  Can't wait for the day when Youview get rid of the dreaded darkened banner when using fast forward/rewind recordings. 

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